danrael

Shhhh! He might be listening at this very moment!!

danrael

Why? Are "empirical methods" the only way of finding something out?

Orthodox_Freethinker

How are my beliefs irrational? Any belief which is opposed to reason cannot be believed by the reason. Faith is not contrary to reason, it is merely above reason.

Peace.

danrael

Aren't the attributes "natural" and "supernatural" just convienient classifications, when, in reality, there are no divisions? Reality is both natural and supernatural at the same time, as reality is singular, and not dual, as we would like to have it. When you point to something as "natural", haven't you also implied the supernatural in the same breath? We take the world we are born into for granted; it is, for us the ordinary, everyday and mundane, but we fail to realize that just to be here in the present moment is quite remarkable and extraordinary! So to be here fully in the present moment in this ordinary reality tells us everything we need to know about the supernatural, but we fail listen, since we give little credence to that which is seemingly mundane.

"Chop wood and carry water: how miraculous!"
Zen saying

danrael

Well, it is obvious that it is not a matter of belief at all, but realization, since we know that the sea really does exist.

Oh, no sir, you are quite an ordinary fellow. Why do you persist in playing hide and seek with yourself, god? Is there a big payoff at the end when you find out who you really are, and stop this living in self-denial? And just think: you'll make your mother sooo happy!


Oh, but sir, it happens all the time! In fact, God is so pleased with the universe that He decided to become one with it. The naturally-occuring universe is just oozing with the supernatural: ..........."and the Word became flesh."

The reason that what you refer to as "god" is unknown to you is that he is so close to you that you cannot see him as an object. It would be like trying to see one's own eye with itself. You fail to realize that you yourself are it. As the Hindus say, "Thou art that". Baby fish is not only in the sea, the sea is also inside of baby fish. But here is where the analogy really does end, for in the case of the natural and the supernatural, the natural is so thoroughly infused with the supernatural to the point that there really is no distinction between the two. The distinction exists only in the mind. You fail to realize it because you see reality as quite ordinary, and it is!

Oh, something far more important than mere faith is needed: what is needed is for humans to receive the gift of Higher Unicorn Consciousness, so that the Pink Unicorn and man may meaningfully converse. Let's see, now. Hmmmm. We need a device. How about an apple, a forbidden apple? The Pink Unicorn can speak to man, and tell him NOT to eat of the apple, so that he will, but to ensure that he does, the Pink Unicorn will transform herself into a snake to coax man into doing so. In this way, man and the Pink Unicorn can live happily ever after now that they have come to the supreme understanding that their minds and hearts are in complete union! You see? I was'nt lying to you when I said that the Pink Unicorn loves you more than you know! But that requires faith, and, well.......


It seems to me that the sceptic, in his attempts to disprove the beliefs of the true believer, unwittingly strengthens his beliefs, as the believer percieves the sceptic as a devil who is trying to do him harm. In the mind of the believer, his beliefs equate with absolute truth. The sceptic should learn to understand this simple fact, and simply agree with the believer. In this way, the believer will let his guard down, and may eventually catch a glimpse of flaws in his belief system on his own.

"The honest man I believe; the liar, I also believe."
Lao tse, Chinese sage

Yahzi

RBAC, you really should brush up on your history. Like, for instance, the Dover case: think of all the money the school district spent on that stupid lawsuit, money that could have gone towards children's educations.

Because if you actually believed in immortality, you would be less motivated to preserve life. If you actually believed that this life is a meaningless drop in the bucket compared to an eternity of bliss, you would be less motivated to reduce the suffering of others. These are simple facts of human nature - just ask any economist.

And the problem with pretending to believe in these things is that it makes it ok for other people to pretend to believe their idiotic notions - like that people with a certain skin color are less human, or that a specific gender is less responsible, or that Adam Sandler can act. These are travesties that our world would be better off without, and we don't appreciate people who indirectly support them by making it ok to pretend to believe stupid crap.

Yahzi

Yes. Which I think is quite consistent with your Zen (at least as far as you have presented it).

Yahzi

What in the world do you mean by "above?"

In any case, you are simply wrong. Reason is believing in things because of evidence, and faith is the exact opposite - believing without evidence. Faith is the opposite of reason; it is the absence of reason, the negation of reason. That is most certainly contrary.

There are only two possible reasons to believe in something: a) because of the evidence, b) not because of the evidence. Reason is the first one, and faith is the second one.

Jobar

The only reality that we can speak of is natural. 'Supernatural' isn't the opposite of 'natural'- it implies a whole other order of reality that is *beyond* the natural. And that very idea is incoherent, pointless, empty, since the natural is all we can perceive. I repeat my question- what do you, personally, claim to find useful about any thing or idea which is supernatural?

Indeed, words are intended to divide things up into classes. Information flow requires pairs of opposites, at minimum. If you view the universe as a single undifferentiated continuum, what can you say about it?

"The word IS NOT the thing.
The map IS NOT the territory.
The symbol IS NOT the thing symbolized."
-S.I. Hayakawa, one of the fathers of semantics

Danrael, I have written and spoken a great deal about this topic. If you like, here's a list of links you might find interesting. I'd suggest that you check out 'Unum's axiomatic God'- it could be you're making the same error of thought Unum did.

Similarities of atheism and pantheism
The divine You
Pantheism opposed to atheism?
Pantheism vs. atheism (lecture on Zen)
Pantheism, and doing quantum mechanics in Chinese
Pantheism vs. naturalism- and discussing it in English
From Relevance of evidence for God
The monist problem of evil
The spirituality of atheists
Robert Ingersoll, pantheist
Unum's axiomatic god
Why dost thou prate of God?

Oh yeah, while we're doing quotes:
"I gained not a single thing from unexcelled, complete awakening; and that is why I call it 'unexcelled, complete awakening'."
-Gautama, the Buddha

diana

Yup.

And I've wondered for some time what's the difference between supernatural and unnatural, for that matter. As near as I can tell, unnatural is a classification of something we don't deem "natural," but with an implied holier-than-thou sneer. Supernatural is a classification of something we don't deem "natural," but with a worshipful, don't-ask-any-further-questions connotation. IOWs, supernatural and unnatural denote basically the same idea. There is no unnatural-natural-supernatural continuum. Something is either "natural" or it isn't. Once one has defined "natural," all else is unnatural...whether one chooses to elevate the concept or crush it underfoot.

d,
understanding that this random rant is probably off-topic, but not giving a natural damn