Freethought & Rationalism Archive

J-D · 09-01-2009, 10:59 PM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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Originally Posted by J-D

Your imaginings about European school teaching are completely irrelevant: I went to school in Australia, not in Europe, and I did not study any of the history we are discussing at school.

That's not correct. In Australia, the NT is studied as if it was history, and real history of what occured in 70 CE is omitted. HOWZAT!? applies.

I don't know where and when you went to school, but I attended New South Wales government schools from 1969 to 1981 and was never taught any part of the New Testament as if it were history or at all. My daughter is now in her eighth year in the New South Wales government school system and the same is true for her. Of course, the New Testament is taught in Christian schools in Australia, but you will not find it in the history syllabus of any Australian government school system.

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

In Ceasar the entire town was wiped out, because a group of Hellnists complained to Nero the Jews refused to worship a Roman emperor. This is what caused the war.

You have failed to back up your version. It does not agree with the account given by the primary source, Josephus. Josephus describes the successful appeal to Nero by the Gentiles of Caesarea against the Jews, and also the massacre of the Jews of Caesarea, but accusations of refusal to worship a Roman Emperor are not an element of his account.

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Denial here is aligning with the Gospels' version of history.

Obvious nonsense, since there is no Gospel version of events in the reign of Nero.

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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The Romans massacred Jews on more than one occasion, as well as massacring many other people, as all imperial powers have done, but the detailed version you give of events is bosh.

I gave a correct account.

You have failed to back it up.

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

While Rome is responsible for massacres everywhere she set foot, the nations did not have a problem with image worship as did the Jews, and this is also the singular cause of their experiences with Europe. The emerging church continued the Roman decree against the Jews, and this doctrine continues today.

The issue is that today's believing christians and muslims have no way of undoing these doctrines - they fall into an abyss with no place to go. This is the result of attaching belief in God with villifications of another - they become mutually exclusive factors in the belief. So if a christian rejects deicide and Jews born of the devil - they think they cannot believe in God or ever get salvation anymore.

It makes no difference what Christians or Muslims (or Jews, for that matter) do or do not believe about their fictitious God. None of that changes the fact that your version of historical events is one that you have completely failed to support.

IamJoseph · 09-01-2009, 10:59 PM

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Originally Posted by J-D

You have still not produced any reference, primary or secondary, which says that either Caligula or Nero issued a decree that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

Caligula:

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http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...earch=caligula

Later on, Caligula professed belief in his own divinity, and ordered altars to be erected to himself and worship to be paid to him. In Alexandria the Roman governor, A. Avillius Flaccus, tried to force this worship on the Jews, and made their disobediencea pretext for persecuting them. He even suppressed an address of homage which they purposed sending to Caligula.

The discord between the Jews and the heathens of Alexandria continued. In the year 40 both sent delegations to Caligula, in order to present the matter to him and to win his good-will. Philo headed the Jewish embassy, and Apion that of the heathen. A report of the mission by Philo has been preserved, though not in the original; and an alleged report of the heathen delegation is found in the collection of papyri at Berlin, which Wilcken intends to edit ("Hermes," xxvii. 474). The mission ended unfavorably for the Jews. Helicon, a base favorite of Caligula, assisted the Alexandrians to thwart the Jews. Caligula ultimately consented to receive the embassy, but treated them with the utmost contumely and insult. They were obliged to follow at his heels while he interspersed orders to his gardeners with ribald remarks on the Jewish religion. Naturally no redress ensued from such an interview.
Trouble in Palestine.
Meanwhile, Caligula's madness almost caused calamity to the Jews of Palestine also. The heathens of Jamnia, a seaport largely peopled with Jews, provoked the latter and exhibited their own loyalty by erecting an altar in honor of Caligula. Forthwith the Jews demolished it. Herennius Capito, the procurator, reported this to Caligula, who, infuriated, sent an order that his image be placed in the Temple at Jerusalem. Petronius, the governor of Syria, was ordered to mobilize half of his army in Palestine in order to enforce this command (39-40). Petronius, anticipating a serious conflict, endeavored either to gain the assent of the Jews to the imperial command or to secure the revocation of the latter. When the news of Caligula's intention spread through Palestine, it occasioned general mourning. A large delegation appeared before Petronius at Ptolemais, his headquarters, and their mournful petition produced a deep impression on him. Later, a similar deputation came before Petronius at Tiberias and was joined by Aristobulus, Agrippa's eloquent brother. In the mean time, however, Agrippa had arrived at Rome, and at a banquet given by him to the emperor, he succeeded in inveigling the latter into a virtual revocation of his order. Afterward the letter of Petronius, asking the emperor for an annulment of his order, arrived; Caligula was incensed at the audacity of the governor, and regretting his former action, laid plans for introducing his statue into the Temple surreptitiously, and sent an order of immediate suicide to Petronius. This message did not reach its destination until after the receipt of the news of Caligula's assassination at the hand of Cassius Chæreas. It is possible that the day of his death (22 Shebaṭ.) was instituted as a memorial day at Jerusalem.

Nero:

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The excesses and extravagances of the court were reflected in monetary extortion in the provinces, including Judea. Moreover, the rise of hellenizing elements in the administration benefited the non-Jewish inhabitants of the country while damaging the interests of the Jews. The procurators of Judea in Nero's time apart from Festus (60–62 C E.) were *Felix (52–60 C.E.), who had already been appointed by *Claudius, *Albinus (62–64 C.E.), and Gessius *Florus (64–66 C.E.). They were the worst in the history of the Roman government of the country, and their rule saw the collapse of law and order in Judea. This was particularly so during the procuratorship of Florus, a Greek from Asia Minor, whose oppressive rule showed nothing but hatred toward the Jewish population. The situation was particularly bad in Caesarea, where, in a municipal dispute between the Jews and the Syrians, Nero decided against the Jews, annulling their privileges. Florus' conduct also caused the outbreak of disturbances in Jerusalem, which led up to the great revolt of 66. Nero, determined to crush the rebels, sent *Vespasian at the head of a large army to the country. Galilee was speedily reconquered by the Roman forces, but Jerusalem continued to hold out. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/....htmlproselyte (Git. 56a).

J-D · 09-01-2009, 11:04 PM

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Originally Posted by PapaverDeum

Also, there is something in Josephus about a decree of some sort of Caligula and something else about Nero. But I do not believe that IAJ has the facts exactly correct. I would have to dig this up in Josephu's WAR.

Josephus describes an order from Caligula for his statue to be placed in the Temple. He states that the Jews refused to do this, although they offered sacrifices for the emperor. The order was not carried out but nobody was punished because Caligula died first.

J-D · 09-01-2009, 11:05 PM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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Originally Posted by J-D

You have still not produced any reference, primary or secondary, which says that either Caligula or Nero issued a decree that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

Caligula:

Nero:

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The excesses and extravagances of the court were reflected in monetary extortion in the provinces, including Judea. Moreover, the rise of hellenizing elements in the administration benefited the non-Jewish inhabitants of the country while damaging the interests of the Jews. The procurators of Judea in Nero's time apart from Festus (60–62 C E.) were *Felix (52–60 C.E.), who had already been appointed by *Claudius, *Albinus (62–64 C.E.), and Gessius *Florus (64–66 C.E.). They were the worst in the history of the Roman government of the country, and their rule saw the collapse of law and order in Judea. This was particularly so during the procuratorship of Florus, a Greek from Asia Minor, whose oppressive rule showed nothing but hatred toward the Jewish population. The situation was particularly bad in Caesarea, where, in a municipal dispute between the Jews and the Syrians, Nero decided against the Jews, annulling their privileges. Florus' conduct also caused the outbreak of disturbances in Jerusalem, which led up to the great revolt of 66. Nero, determined to crush the rebels, sent *Vespasian at the head of a large army to the country. Galilee was speedily reconquered by the Roman forces, but Jerusalem continued to hold out. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/....htmlproselyte (Git. 56a).

Yes, Caligula ordered that his statue be placed in the Temple, but he did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified. And yes, Nero sent an army under Vespasian to crush the Jewish revolt, but he also did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

IamJoseph · 09-01-2009, 11:28 PM

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Originally Posted by PapaverDeum

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The lack of alternative evidence says the Gospels was written by Romans and Greeks between the 2nd and 3rd C. The lack of evidence of any Hebrew documents [Jews never wrote scriptures in Latin] - also affirms that conclusion.

Couple of problems here. The NT gospels and Epistles were originally written in greek. They were later translated into Latin.

The problem you disregard is that we have no greek gospels, and this has no excuse. You will find that in every case where a small token of evidence would have vindicated the Gospels - they do not exist - only manipulative excuses exist, in a period where writings was commonplace. It means, more than not, that the Gospels is not just fiction, but a purposeful guile.

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You are correct inthat the Jewish scriptures were writtne in Hebrew(which is a dialect of Canaanite) and Aramaic (which was a Babylonian language?). By the time of the second temple period, Hebrew was not in common use. It was only used in religious rituals. Judeans and Gallileans spoke Aramaic as their common language of commerce. The Hebrew language was by this time ancient and had fallen out of use by due to circumstance (the Babylonian exile) but also because by this time it lacked the expressiveness and sophistication of the Greek or Aramaic languages.

This may be off tiopic, but your submissions are wrong, despite that you may fnd such links commonplace. If Hebrew was a Canaanite dialec, then why don't we see any canmaanite alphabetical writings - specially when this nation is older than the Hebrews? In other places, they say Hebrew is derived from Pheonecian, which presents an additional problem as with the canaanites: the pheonecian script contained no 'V' alphabet or sound, while the Hebrew did! Further, Josephus, who predates the Christian writings, says the Greeks got their alpha beta from the Hebrew alef bet along with the Septuagint: I cannot find any Greek alphabetical writings pre-septuagint.

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But, The bit about Vespasian and Titus, their concubines and massive crucifixions almost seems like Josephus borrowing from the Alexander Janus story for literary effect. Still, for this time and place this would not surprise me.

Most implausable. Josephus was under the protection of Vespasian for his life, and he would not say this unless it was blatantly true and undeniable. The fact is this is contained in Josephus, written as it happened, yet I found a continueing denial of it by JD.

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Also, I've read in at least one analysis of Josephus that he greatly exaggeratted the numbers in his Jewish War. I seem to remember that Michael Grant in his "Jesus" book estimated the population of greater Jerusalem to have been about 200K in the early first century.(I' can look up that ref when I get home this weekend)

And I can post numerous historians who say Josephus work is totally accurate, even down to the sizes of stone bricks and measurements of walls, and matching a host of Roman writers's archives. The human toll given by Josephus is in sub totals of groups, events and town massacres, and aligns with the known population figures of this period.

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(speculation) I had always thought that perhaps Christianity might have originally been created as a more universal form of Judaism(less the penis mutilation and the kosher requirements).. Perhaps their thinking was that because the JUdean revolt(s) against Rome had failed so miserably that they imagined that god had abandoned the Judeans, and thought that Rome was now the favored kingdom.
(and Why not, the Jews in their entire history have never accomplished even a fraction of what Greeks and Romans had, in terms of building, philosophy, language,
literature, trial by jury, legal systems, democracy, etc,etc).

I personally cannot imagine this. For me the god of the Tanakh reads like an evil tyrannical bastard, unworthy of worship.

Personally I would worship Caligula anyday over that piece of dung they call a god in the Tanakh.

Not ot meantion that at least Caligula was a real person. Yahweh was just a figment of Jewish imagination.

Not worth responding to.

IamJoseph · 09-01-2009, 11:29 PM

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Originally Posted by J-D

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Caligula:

Nero:

Yes, Caligula ordered that his statue be placed in the Temple, but he did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified. And yes, Nero sent an army under Vespasian to crush the Jewish revolt, but he also did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

Duh! Maybe the Jews did this to themselves - as with Europe's second Holocaust in the 40's.

storytime · 09-02-2009, 12:06 AM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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Originally Posted by storytime

There was no mass genocide in 70 C.E. Certainly no holocaust. At least none that I've read about. History coming from you is like history from the myth of Christ.

In 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by fire, with a human toll of 1.2 Million: that represents Europe's first Holocaust. There was also a mass exile to Europe of the Jews, who were then mercilessly persecuted and barred from returning, with their homeland's name changed from Judea to Palestine, and the entire wealth and treasury looted - you can see the engravings of this stolen loot in the arch of Titus in Rome today. You can also read all about it in the Josephus documents, written as it happened. The unpardonable crime is the Gospels did not even mention it in its texts - making that document a lie-by-omission.

Lies by ommission would of course include those in the Hebrew bible.

1.2 million (if you insist on that exact number, of which you have no way of verifying) would have included the Romans who died for their country. You've manufactured a 2000 year old halocaust to use as your battle axe. Patriotism in "good" Romans vs "evil" Jews patriotism and without all the gospels, for I seriously doubt that anyone, Jew or Roman gave a damn about stories invented at that time. Of course lies by ommission would account for this, wouldn't it Joseph?

Unpardonable crimes? You of course mean "sins". Is it a crime[sin] to fight for ones country? If so, then the Jews are off to the levels of hell and damnation or whatever is written about degrees of punishment. Unpardonable crimes? Remember Amelek? Isn't he the guy who offended the Jews by defending his own country and no letting the Jews pass through his land? Why should he have, because the Jews said so? Let's read again about the atrocities committed by Israel on command of their psychopathic deranged anti-social god and how that book of horror stories has done nothing for the betterment of mankind and instead caused untold sorrows for all who ever thought to turn its pages and to claim it as their own. Yeah, let's talk about those unpardonable crimes against innocent humanity. And don't forget about Europe, those offensive Christians, Muslims, and whoever else non-Jewish that you detest so much. And do tell us Joseph another lie by ommission about how your god said to handle all the non-Jewish people who would and will not submit themselves to the Hebrew bible's blabbering lies. You can' any longer smooth over this stuff in pretense of your god being fair and equal to all men. Remember Esau? who God always hated? When the writers constructed all that crap, why do you think they wrote "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated"?

J-D · 09-02-2009, 12:29 AM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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Originally Posted by J-D

Yes, Caligula ordered that his statue be placed in the Temple, but he did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified. And yes, Nero sent an army under Vespasian to crush the Jewish revolt, but he also did not order that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

Duh! Maybe the Jews did this to themselves - as with Europe's second Holocaust in the 40's.

The army sent by Nero (to crush the Jewish revolt) and commanded by Vespasian (and later by Titus) massacred many Jews. But neither Caligula nor Nero issued a decree that anybody who did not worship the emperor's image should be crucified.

J-D · 09-02-2009, 12:30 AM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

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Originally Posted by PapaverDeum

Couple of problems here. The NT gospels and Epistles were originally written in greek. They were later translated into Latin.

The problem you disregard is that we have no greek gospels,

You have given no reason to suppose that this is true.

J-D · 09-02-2009, 12:33 AM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I cannot find any Greek alphabetical writings pre-septuagint.

The Iliad and the Odyssey (and many other works) were written in the Greek alphabet long before the Septuagint.

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