Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 08-14-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

The essence of the Church's teaching on abortion is that a human being possesses a soul from the moment of conception. "Surely I was sinful at the time of my birth, sinful from the moment my mother conceived me," declares David in Psalm 51. Since sinfulness belongs to the spirit not to the body, the growing foetus must be in possession of a soul quite as much as the growing child.

From above link and then link to Pope at bottom of article.

So, what is a soul and what is a spirit?

Toto · 08-14-2007, 11:01 AM

I can't get to that link, but it is mentioned here

Quote:

The essence of the Church's teaching on abortion is that a human being possesses a soul from the moment of conception. "Surely I was sinful at the time of my birth, sinful from the moment my mother conceived me," declares David in Psalm 51. Since sinfulness belongs to the spirit not to the body, the growing foetus must be in possession of a soul quite as much as the growing child.

The church's teaching on abortion, said Pope John Paul II in 1995, "is unchanged and unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God."

Funny that the unchanging church did not actually realize what those words meant until the 19th century. But I am not sure why a body cannot be sinful.

Young's literal translation:

Quote:

5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

KJV:

Quote:

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

implies that the sin was the mother's, not the embyo's hypothetical soul.

And note that this Psalm is King David begging for forgiveness after being caught in adultery with Bathseba. A bit of hyperbole might be expected?

Clivedurdle · 08-14-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Surely I was sinful at the time of my birth

Is that a catholic translation? Is this about Augustine and original sin?

Rauch, breath is spirit isn't it? So spirit is life, but then what is an eternal soul?

David is stating the result of adultery, the child is born in sin, not that the child is sinful,

Chili · 08-14-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Funny that the unchanging church did not actually realize what those words meant until the 19th century. But I am not sure why a body cannot be sinful.

Because the mind is in charge off the body.

Quote:

Young's literal translation:

KJV:

Quote:

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

implies that the sin was the mother's, not the embyo's hypothetical soul.

Sin is the product of a rout wherein two opposites take a stand and a new creation is conceived. The sin has nothing to do with the mother but with the controversy out of which conception takes place.

Clivedurdle · 08-15-2007, 01:52 AM

But what is a soul and what is a spirit?

Does my soul or my spirit get saved if I am baptised or ask Jesus into my heart?

Is one eternal and the other not? How do they become enfleshed?

Is Jesus as a new Adam a special new type of human according to Paul's beliefs?

Someone must have worked out the theobiological systems they were using then

Ray Moscow · 08-15-2007, 02:05 AM

As you can see from the pope's statement above, the RCC uses "soul" and "spirit" interchangeable most of the time. So do most other denominations.

However, I think this is just wrong, and even the Bible (which we might have expected the churches to consult occasionally) makes this quite clear.

Clivedurdle · 08-15-2007, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

As you can see from the pope's statement above, the RCC uses "soul" and "spirit" interchangeable most of the time. So do most other denominations.

However, I think this is just wrong, and even the Bible (which we might have expected the churches to consult occasionally) makes this quite clear.

But that was not the Pope's statement - it is a gloss on a website that was printed in the Independent - Independent may be first.

So what is a soul and what is a spirit? Is it related to the four elements?

Ray Moscow · 08-15-2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

As you can see from the pope's statement above, the RCC uses "soul" and "spirit" interchangeable most of the time. So do most other denominations.

However, I think this is just wrong, and even the Bible (which we might have expected the churches to consult occasionally) makes this quite clear.

But that was not the Pope's statement - it is a gloss on a website that was printed in the Independent - Independent may be first.

Sorry -- I must have gotten my quotes mixed up.

As to the RCC getting soul and spirit mixed up, here's an example from the RCC catechism:

Quote:

II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

Quote:

Clive: So what is a soul and what is a spirit? Is it related to the four elements?

I think "soul" is a poetic way to refer to the whole person. F&G argue that it's a poetic way to describe the person's entire "psychic" experiences, both outer and inner.

Spirit is breath or wind. There is no life (or animal life, anyway) without it. Of course it's also the element of air.

It's also a metaphor for something else, though -- in mystery religions, a deeper level of psychological awareness, perhaps consciousness itself.

Ray

Clivedurdle · 08-15-2007, 10:53 AM

It is good to know the opposition to contraception and abortion is based on spiritual souls!

:banghead:

And linking this to theobiology these spiritual souls must breathe, so what is the atmosphere of heaven (and hell) - if they ain't breathing they are no longer spiritual!

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08-15-2007, 01:52 AM	#15
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But what is a soul and what is a spirit? Does my soul or my spirit get saved if I am baptised or ask Jesus into my heart? Is one eternal and the other not? How do they become enfleshed? Is Jesus as a new Adam a special new type of human according to Paul's beliefs? Someone must have worked out the theobiological systems they were using then

08-15-2007, 02:05 AM	#16
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	As you can see from the pope's statement above, the RCC uses "soul" and "spirit" interchangeable most of the time. So do most other denominations. However, I think this is just wrong, and even the Bible (which we might have expected the churches to consult occasionally) makes this quite clear.

08-15-2007, 10:53 AM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It is good to know the opposition to contraception and abortion is based on spiritual souls! :banghead: And linking this to theobiology these spiritual souls must breathe, so what is the atmosphere of heaven (and hell) - if they ain't breathing they are no longer spiritual!

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