Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 11-10-2003, 11:59 AM

It is actually not a small Abel Stable at all. I have already provided for Jim passages where YHWH demands child sacrifice and later admits he forced evil rules on his people so he could punish them for following them!

Perchance we should agree with the various gnostics? Reading quite literally the two creation myths in Genesis and noticing that it is YHWH who commits evil by lying to Adam and Eve, they concluded that YHWH was the wrong god! One of my favorite quotes:

Quote:

Their chief [YHWH.--Ed.] is blind; [because of his] power and his ignorance [and his] arrogance he said, with his [power], "It is I who am God; there is none [appart from me]."

When he said this, he sinned against [the entirety]. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samuel"--which is, "god of the blind."

"The Hypostasis of the Archons," Layton B trans., in Robinson JM ed. The Nag Hammadi Library.

Extend it to Christian gnosticism and, if memory serves me correctly, the snake becomes Junior--tries to help Eve realize her true nature.

I mean if we can give credence to later works such as Jubilees as ways to interpret earlier texts, then why not these?

--J.D.

Jim Larmore · 11-10-2003, 02:08 PM

When you say God created evil I have to agree with you to an extent. God is the creator of all things including lucifer but to say He caused the evil Himself is like telling a parent who has a wayward child that they created the evil that child is committing. God is a God of love and freedom, He made the individual we call lucifer and then gave that being a "free will" to think and do as he pleased. When sin entered his heart ( The Bible says sin was a mystery to God) it became the cancer that has nearly consumed this world and had to be delt with by the creators themselves. The plan of salvation was put in place before the earth was created and it was carried out by the messiah at calvary.

All of us have this same free will to do as we please, its a gift and a curse at the same time in that we all are going to be responsible for our decisions one day and will reap the rewards or consequewnces of these decisions.

Biff the unclean · 11-10-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Larmore
God is the creator of all things including lucifer but to say He caused the evil Himself is like telling a parent who has a wayward child that they created the evil that child is committing.

So you are changing the Bible then? God Himself boasts that He created evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Can He make Himself any plainer? "I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" not Satan, not Eve or her boyfriend "I the LORD (all caps)".
It looks like you want the Bible to say something that it doesn't

Steven Carr · 11-10-2003, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Larmore
When you say God created evil I have to agree with you to an extent. God is the creator of all things including lucifer but to say He caused the evil Himself is like telling a parent who has a wayward child that they created the evil that child is committing.

Jim contradicts himself in less than ONE sentence.

God creates all things, and just 9 words later he tells us things that God did not create.

Biff the unclean · 11-10-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Carr
Jim contradicts himself in less than ONE sentence.

God creates all things, and just 9 words later he tells us things that God did not create.

That is a big problem with monotheism. The Hellenists and other Pagans could play their Gods off of one another--good guys vs bad guys. But when you are stuck with one "all powerful" God he becomes responsible for literally everything. Even if His creation was the one who did the dirty deed since the mono God knows everything-including the end results of his actions he retains responsibility.

R.J. · 11-10-2003, 05:36 PM

Latest Reply from Christian Apologist:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MYSTERY_BABYLON_THE_GREAT
480 Re: FWD: RE: Here's proof that Christianity is a mythology iNFoWaRZ infowarz2002 Sun 11/9/2003
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MYSTER...AT/message/480

EXCREATIONIST WROTE:
Internet Infidels Discussion Forums > II Philosophical Forums >
Biblical Criticism & History > Gen. 3:15
<http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=67473>
excreationist -- Veteran User -- Registered: August 2000
Location: Queensland, Australia -- Posts: 3554

About the larger context:

quote:
Genesis 3:14-15
"So the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

So the serpent person is an animal. Some translations call it
a "snake". Apparently snakes literally do eat dust (AiG link).
<http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1295.asp>
It seems that 3:15 is also literal -- snakes and people don't get
along very well, and snakes do attack people's heels while people crush their heads...

It seems that the intelligence of the snake was its own -- it doesn't say anything about it being possessed by Satan.

quote:
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 talks about the devil being an "ancient
serpent", but that had a different author, and doesn't prove that the other authors of the Bible thought that the snake in eden was possessed by Satan. Apparently Jewish people believe it was just a snake, not Satan. I think the Quran talks about Satan being in the garden, rather than a snake.

Note that Paul(?) didn't seem to think that Satan was involved in
Eden: quote:
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's
cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
------------------------------------------------------------
CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE:
Very good, now add that with the rest of the story and you will have context:

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

PS: If you haven't read the Scriptures own rules on how to understand the Scriptures and apply them, then your quest for understanding will fail.

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

excreationist · 11-10-2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Larmore
Excreationist,
Have you ever heard of duality of meanings when it comes to the Bible? I am not really prepared to give specific examples but the Bible is full of texts and storys that have symbolism for later occurrences and represent a dualism if you will for that story, its context may say one thing but the symbolism may referr to things in the future. One example I can think of off the top of my head is Abraham and Isaac are symbolic of God the Father sacrificing Jesus on the cross.

There are a large number of differences in those two stories...
1) It was God's idea to sacrifice Jesus... it wasn't Abraham's idea to sacrifice Isaac.
2) The faith of Abraham was being tested (the person doing the sacrificing), rather than Isaac, who was the sacrifice.
3) It was just a test - just before Abraham was about to stab Isaac, an angel of God stopped them.
4) After the test stopped, Abraham looked around and found a ram to sacrifice instead. A RAM not a lamb.
It seems unlikely that this test of faith story was symbolic of the story of Jesus's sacrifice. I think in Hebrews or something, Paul says that Abraham had a lot of faith... rather than Isaac... in the crucifixion it would be Jesus (Isaac?) who had the faith!

Quote:

The dualism is present in the passage in Ezek. and Isaiah where it talks about the king of Tyre, but it plainly is also speaking of Lucifer and his fall in heaven. Its easy to obfuscate the Bible if you want to by not seeing the obvious, for instance when it talks about lucifer walking among the stones of fire and being in the presence of the most high, how could this apply to an earthly king? Its obviously talking of the once perfect angel lucifer who became satan. You have to look beyond the context and see the applicable dualism.

Have you considered the possibility that the parts about him being in Eden, etc, were symbolic?
Here is the end part of that passage:
Ezekiel 28:17-19:

Quote:

Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

Note that verse 17 only talks about one person being thrown to earth... it doesn't say anything about a third of the angels coming with him, which is an important part of the story. It seems that he was thrown to earth just because he was proud and not wise enough - it doesn't mention any kind of war in heaven (like in Revelation).
Note that it seems that was translated according to the belief that that passage is about Satan. In some other translations, such as the Contemporary English Version, it seems to assume that it was just a king.

Quote:

It was your good looks that made you arrogant, and you were so famous that you started acting like a fool. That's why I threw you to the ground and let other kings sneer at you. You have cheated so many other merchants that your places of worship are corrupt. So I set your city on fire and burned it down. Now everyone sees only ashes where your city once stood, and the people of other nations are shocked. Your punishment was horrible, and you are gone forever.

Note that the Hebrew OT consists of lots of ambiguous words that can mean a lot of things... so both could be valid translations - while one might be clearer or more likely to be accurate.

Quote:

I don't know why it doesn't say the serpent was possessed by satan or that he had influenced the serpent,

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe satan wasn't involved? Also, remember that Genesis and Paul said that the serpent was crafty... it didn't say anything about Satan's craftiness being the root cause of all this.

Quote:

but if you do just a little logical thinking it only makes sense that evil was introduced via the originator of evil and thats satan.

That's if you are looking at it from the NT point of view... but that sounds like you're reinterpreting Genesis in a very forced way (though it is common amongst Christians) just to make the NT make more sense.

Quote:

Like I said I don't know if the animals could talk before the fall or not but I know that the Bible says man had dominion over all the earth and "if" they couldn't talk then it would have to take a super-natural influence to make the serpent talk. That influence had to be satan.

Maybe some animals could talk and some couldn't - just like how some animals can fly and some can't, etc.

Quote:

The church per se' has existed way before Jesus came along and they called them "Christians" . If you consider what a church is, its a body of believers who worship God. All the old patriachs of the Bible represent the church. The sanctuary itself represented God's house and was a forerunner of the church building proper. Most churches are fashioned similar to the temples or tabernacles of old.

That's a very curious argument... so what about in the NT when some of the Jews rejected Jesus? Did they suddenly stop being members of the church? But their beliefs and traditions basically remained the same... they just believed in the God of the OT and nothing else.

Quote:

The Bible ( I'll have to find the text) specifically says the church is symbolically represented by a "virtuous woman".

What is so virtuous about Eve? She was the one who was tempted first and who handed the fruit to Adam and she was cursed. She was the first human that led to the *entire* human race being cursed! And remember that Jesus isn't technically her offspring - Mary was a virgin.

Quote:

So in Gen.3:15 when it says I will put enmity between thee and the woman it symbolically and dualistically spoke of the enmity between the church ( woman ) and satan ( serpent ) that would occurr in the future and the seed of the woman ( Jesus ) would be the messiah which would give a deadly wound to the deceiver satan.

It says that the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent's *offspring*. So the church would be against Satan, and the offspring of the church would crush the offspring of Satan. So to be consistent it means Jesus crushed the head of the *offspring* of Satan... it doesn't say that the offspring of the woman crushed the head of the original serpent (it was the serpent's *offspring* that were involved)
Also remember that the curse involves 6 verses and you are just picking one of them that *very* loosely corresponds with one of the verses, assuming you ignore half of the verse.
And remember that it says that *God* put the enmity between the two parties (the church and Satan, and the offspring of the church and the offspring of Satan).

Quote:

The messiah would come from this body of believers symbolically represented by the "woman" or church and by His sacrifice would forever make the end of sin a certain thing. The outcome for satan and his demons is writtten in stone he will receive a deadly wound in the lake of fire at the end of the world's age. In Ezek it says and "never shall thou be anymore", so satan will be destroyed along with all the wicked who refuse to accept the plan of salvation and receive etenal life. This is the deadly wound to the head.

So besides being cast out of heaven, Satan's only punishment is to be destroyed? BTW, do you think the unsaved are destroyed or do they suffer eternally?

excreationist · 11-10-2003, 08:40 PM

R.J.: here's my reply:

CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE:
"Very good, now add that with the rest of the story and you will have context: (Ezekiel 28:13-15)"

EXCREATIONIST'S REPLY:
This seems to be about a single "cherub".... perhaps a similar creature to those cherubim guarding Eden in Genesis 3:24. (Apparently cherubim is the plural form)
The surrounding verses say nothing about the person being a leader (except for the mention of "king") or others being involved (such as a third of heaven's angels). It doesn't mention anything about the person deceiving anyone else - it just says they sinned due to pride. It doesn't say that the person used a snake while in Eden to deceive others... it merely says that he was in Eden. It then goes onto mention the holy mountain of God, so it seems that this person sinned in God's mountain rather than in Eden.
The passage talks about trade (merchandise/traffick - some translations say "buying and selling")... was Satan making a trade in Eden or elsewhere? BTW, in verse 19 it seems to say that the person (alledgely Satan) won't exist anymore at the end... it doesn't say anything about him suffering eternally, which you might believe.

CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE (earlier):
"Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity (Deep-seated, mutual hatred. Make enemies.) between thee (Satan) and the woman (Eve), and between thy seed (children of Satan) and her seed (Jesus Christ); it shall bruise thy head, (Satan will be defeated. Bruise to the head, meaning it is fatal.) and thou (Satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel. (but Satan shall bruise Jesus. Arresting, beating, and causing to be killed. Bruise to the heel is not fatal as would be a bruise to the head, as Jesus rose from the dead.)
en�mi�ty n. Deep-seated, often mutual hatred."

EXCREATIONIST'S REPLY:
At the start of that you're talking about the woman's offspring (Jesus [though he biologically wasn't really descended from Eve]) and the serpent's offspring (children of Satan). The verse says that God will put the enmity between those parties... so it seems that Satan and Jesus (and humans?) didn't choose to have enmity towards each other... it was God who was responsible.
So anyway, when it says "it shall bruise thy head" it is talking about the woman's offspring bruising the serpent's offspring... so if Jesus is involved, it would also involve Satan's *offspring*. (not Satan). It says that the woman's offspring is crushing the serpent's *offspring's* heads, not the original serpent's head. And when it talks about the serpent's offspring striking the woman's offspring's heel, if Jesus was involved, it would mean Jesus's heel is being struck by Satan's offspring - but not Satan.
The only valid way to have a relationship between Jesus and Satan within that passage is to assume that Jesus is the woman. (though in the NT, the bride of Jesus is supposed to be the church....)
I see that you're just trying to find a double meaning in one of the verses concerning the curse in Genesis 3:14-19. Remember that it also talks about the woman having increased childbirth pains, desiring her husband and being ruled by her husband... so what is the second meaning for this? And the woman should have the same second meaning throughout that passage... it shouldn't have a different alternate meaning in every verse. The curse also talks about the serpent crawling on its belly and eating dust.... does it mean that Satan does these things? When Satan tempts Jesus in the NT he seems to own all the kingdoms of the world - he doesn't seem very poor to me (eating dust).
Perhaps you think that part is literal and that it has no secondary meaning. Then it seems odd that the isolated verse of verse 15 has a secondary meaning since it is easy to interpret it literally. (snakes and humans don't get along and snakes bite people's heels while we crush their heads...)

As far as Matthew 13:11-13 goes, when Jesus uses parables, it is clear he is using a story to express some other message and the message comes across quite clearly making use of the whole story. Surrounding Genesis 3:15 there is a story about two humans wanting to be like God and how God cursed them. 3:15 is just one part of the curse which seems to explain why snakes and humans don't get along (God made it that way as part of the curse). It seems very ad-hoc to pick that verse in isolation and see it as some kind of prophecy and ignore the surrounding verses. And as I explained earlier, if you follow that verse properly, only Jesus and Satan's offspring - *not* Satan - would be involved. If Satan (the serpent) was involved, then the corresponding person is whoever the woman is meant to represent. If the woman is the church, then it means the church crushed Satan's head - while Jesus (the woman's offspring) only crushed the heads of Satan's offspring. (and not Satan)

Jim Larmore · 11-11-2003, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Carr
Jim contradicts himself in less than ONE sentence.

God creates all things, and just 9 words later he tells us things that God did not create.

Steve
You misrepresent me pretty bad here, If you would read what I said , I said He didn't" cause" the sin Lucifer created in his heart. Do you create what your children do? Indirectly maybe in that you brought your children into this world but you aren't guilty of the crimes they committ unless you were there when they committed them. You guys are all over this in a negative way and you refuse to see a common sense truth. It really makes you look pitiful.

I'm not changing what the Bible says, I know God says He creates evil, He takes "responsiblilty" for all of creation and that includes the evil satan brought to the table, but to blame God for evil is ludicrous. God and evil can't even exist together, thats why satan and his fallen angels were kicked out of heaven. Thats why Adam and Eve were kicked out of paradise. God and evil are opposites. God is Holy and as such can not abide sin. The plan of salvation provided a way for sinful man to be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Sin had to be allowed to run its course so all the unfallen worlds in the universe could see the nature of what sin is. Like I said before the Bible says sin was a mystery. Well, after all this time we know full well what sin has done to this world and those who live on it.

Doctor X · 11-11-2003, 06:34 AM

Except "Lucifer" is not Satan. . . .

--J.D.

11-10-2003, 05:36 PM	#26
R.J. Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 42	Latest Reply from Christian Apologist Latest Reply from Christian Apologist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MYSTERY_BABYLON_THE_GREAT 480 Re: FWD: RE: Here's proof that Christianity is a mythology iNFoWaRZ infowarz2002 Sun 11/9/2003 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MYSTER...AT/message/480 EXCREATIONIST WROTE: Internet Infidels Discussion Forums > II Philosophical Forums > Biblical Criticism & History > Gen. 3:15 <http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=67473> excreationist -- Veteran User -- Registered: August 2000 Location: Queensland, Australia -- Posts: 3554 About the larger context: quote: Genesis 3:14-15 "So the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." So the serpent person is an animal. Some translations call it a "snake". Apparently snakes literally do eat dust (AiG link). <http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1295.asp> It seems that 3:15 is also literal -- snakes and people don't get along very well, and snakes do attack people's heels while people crush their heads... It seems that the intelligence of the snake was its own -- it doesn't say anything about it being possessed by Satan. quote: Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 talks about the devil being an "ancient serpent", but that had a different author, and doesn't prove that the other authors of the Bible thought that the snake in eden was possessed by Satan. Apparently Jewish people believe it was just a snake, not Satan. I think the Quran talks about Satan being in the garden, rather than a snake. Note that Paul(?) didn't seem to think that Satan was involved in Eden: quote: 2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ------------------------------------------------------------ CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE: Very good, now add that with the rest of the story and you will have context: Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. PS: If you haven't read the Scriptures own rules on how to understand the Scriptures and apply them, then your quest for understanding will fail. Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

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11-10-2003, 02:08 PM	#22
Jim Larmore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bartlesville, Okla. Posts: 856	When you say God created evil I have to agree with you to an extent. God is the creator of all things including lucifer but to say He caused the evil Himself is like telling a parent who has a wayward child that they created the evil that child is committing. God is a God of love and freedom, He made the individual we call lucifer and then gave that being a "free will" to think and do as he pleased. When sin entered his heart ( The Bible says sin was a mystery to God) it became the cancer that has nearly consumed this world and had to be delt with by the creators themselves. The plan of salvation was put in place before the earth was created and it was carried out by the messiah at calvary. All of us have this same free will to do as we please, its a gift and a curse at the same time in that we all are going to be responsible for our decisions one day and will reap the rewards or consequewnces of these decisions.

11-10-2003, 08:40 PM	#28
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	R.J.: here's my reply: CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE: "Very good, now add that with the rest of the story and you will have context: (Ezekiel 28:13-15)" EXCREATIONIST'S REPLY: This seems to be about a single "cherub".... perhaps a similar creature to those cherubim guarding Eden in Genesis 3:24. (Apparently cherubim is the plural form) The surrounding verses say nothing about the person being a leader (except for the mention of "king") or others being involved (such as a third of heaven's angels). It doesn't mention anything about the person deceiving anyone else - it just says they sinned due to pride. It doesn't say that the person used a snake while in Eden to deceive others... it merely says that he was in Eden. It then goes onto mention the holy mountain of God, so it seems that this person sinned in God's mountain rather than in Eden. The passage talks about trade (merchandise/traffick - some translations say "buying and selling")... was Satan making a trade in Eden or elsewhere? BTW, in verse 19 it seems to say that the person (alledgely Satan) won't exist anymore at the end... it doesn't say anything about him suffering eternally, which you might believe. CHRISTIAN APOLOGIST WROTE (earlier): "Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity (Deep-seated, mutual hatred. Make enemies.) between thee (Satan) and the woman (Eve), and between thy seed (children of Satan) and her seed (Jesus Christ); it shall bruise thy head, (Satan will be defeated. Bruise to the head, meaning it is fatal.) and thou (Satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel. (but Satan shall bruise Jesus. Arresting, beating, and causing to be killed. Bruise to the heel is not fatal as would be a bruise to the head, as Jesus rose from the dead.) en�mi�ty n. Deep-seated, often mutual hatred." EXCREATIONIST'S REPLY: At the start of that you're talking about the woman's offspring (Jesus [though he biologically wasn't really descended from Eve]) and the serpent's offspring (children of Satan). The verse says that God will put the enmity between those parties... so it seems that Satan and Jesus (and humans?) didn't choose to have enmity towards each other... it was God who was responsible. So anyway, when it says "it shall bruise thy head" it is talking about the woman's offspring bruising the serpent's offspring... so if Jesus is involved, it would also involve Satan's offspring. (not Satan). It says that the woman's offspring is crushing the serpent's offspring's heads, not the original serpent's head. And when it talks about the serpent's offspring striking the woman's offspring's heel, if Jesus was involved, it would mean Jesus's heel is being struck by Satan's offspring - but not Satan. The only valid way to have a relationship between Jesus and Satan within that passage is to assume that Jesus is the woman. (though in the NT, the bride of Jesus is supposed to be the church....) I see that you're just trying to find a double meaning in one of the verses concerning the curse in Genesis 3:14-19. Remember that it also talks about the woman having increased childbirth pains, desiring her husband and being ruled by her husband... so what is the second meaning for this? And the woman should have the same second meaning throughout that passage... it shouldn't have a different alternate meaning in every verse. The curse also talks about the serpent crawling on its belly and eating dust.... does it mean that Satan does these things? When Satan tempts Jesus in the NT he seems to own all the kingdoms of the world - he doesn't seem very poor to me (eating dust). Perhaps you think that part is literal and that it has no secondary meaning. Then it seems odd that the isolated verse of verse 15 has a secondary meaning since it is easy to interpret it literally. (snakes and humans don't get along and snakes bite people's heels while we crush their heads...) As far as Matthew 13:11-13 goes, when Jesus uses parables, it is clear he is using a story to express some other message and the message comes across quite clearly making use of the whole story. Surrounding Genesis 3:15 there is a story about two humans wanting to be like God and how God cursed them. 3:15 is just one part of the curse which seems to explain why snakes and humans don't get along (God made it that way as part of the curse). It seems very ad-hoc to pick that verse in isolation and see it as some kind of prophecy and ignore the surrounding verses. And as I explained earlier, if you follow that verse properly, only Jesus and Satan's offspring - not Satan - would be involved. If Satan (the serpent) was involved, then the corresponding person is whoever the woman is meant to represent. If the woman is the church, then it means the church crushed Satan's head - while Jesus (the woman's offspring) only crushed the heads of Satan's offspring. (and not Satan)

11-11-2003, 06:34 AM	#30
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Except "Lucifer" is not Satan. . . . --J.D.

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