Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 06-02-2010, 09:52 AM

Hi aa5874,

You are, I believe, retrojecting ideas into Martyr's text that weren't there when he wrote them.

Justin Martyr lists a series of actions found in Homer. These actions all involve men suffering for the love of a woman. He says that he doesn't see this as virtuous.

Quote:

Such things I have no desire to be instructed in.

Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer. For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.

The phrase "That I should believe the Myths of Homer" means roughly "because I do believe the stories of Homer."

Martyr is saying that he believes in the myths/stories of Homer and they teach people to suffer for the love of a woman. Being a Christian, and most likely homosexual, Martyr does not believe in suffering for women. Therefore, he does not wish to be instructed in such acts by listening to these stories.

This only confirms that Martyr belonged to a homosexual Christian cult. He is rejecting Greek culture because of its heterosexuality. It confirms that he believes in the Greek Gods and stories, but he finds them immoral, because they preach heterosexuality and love of women.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

....We are agreed that Justin Martyr believes in one true God, but the question is " What else he believes is true?" My position is that he also believes in true angels and he also believes in true demons, and it these demons that the Greeks and Romans called Gods. Thus he also believed in the Greek and Roman Gods.

IT is just NOT true that Justin Martyr also believed in the Greek and Roman Gods.

But I will let Justin Martyr ANSWER you himself.

This is Justin Martyr in "Discourse to the Greeks" 1

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God.

For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance. For any one who becomes the scholar of your most eminent instructor, is more beset by difficulties than all men besides.

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis, and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis.

And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo.

And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice. And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears.

Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the amour.

Such things I have no desire to be instructed in.

Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer. For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.

Justin has ANSWERED you. He did NOT believe in the MYTHS of Homer. Justin did NOT believe in the mythical Greek and Roman Gods.

Toto · 06-02-2010, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

...

Martyr is saying that he believes in the myths/stories of Homer and they teach people to suffer for the love of a woman. Being a Christian, and most likely homosexual, Martyr does not believe in suffering for women. Therefore, he does not wish to be instructed in such acts by listening to these stories.

This only confirms that Martyr belonged to a homosexual Christian cult. He is rejecting Greek culture because of its heterosexuality. ...

I don't think this shows that Justin Martyr was homosexual, or that he rejected Greek culture because of its heterosexuality. Greek and also Jewish culture at the time both devalued women. It seems to me that this was just a debating point - that Justin Martyr could score a zinger against the Greek myths by pointing out that the central position of women.

BTW - His name is Justin, and he is called a Martyr because he allegedly was martyred for his faith. Why do you use Martyr as if it were his surname? For example Philo Judaios = Philo the Jew, is never referred to as Judaios.

aa5874 · 06-02-2010, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

You are, I believe, retrojecting ideas into Martyr's text that weren't there when he wrote them.

Justin Martyr lists a series of actions found in Homer. These actions all involve men suffering for the love of a woman. He says that he doesn't see this as virtuous.

Justin Martyr in the very first line wrote that he has SEPARATED himself from the customs of the Greeks.

"Discourse to the Greeks"1

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God. For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance....

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" 2

Quote:

Whom, then, ye men of Greece, do ye call your teachers of religion? The poets?

It will do your cause no good to say so to men who know the poets; for they know how very ridiculous a theogony they have composed,--as we can learn from Homer, your most distinguished and prince of poets.

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI

Quote:

This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods, had its origin with the father of lies.

God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is."....

So, based on Justin the compositions of the Greek poets were MADNESS, RIDICULOUS and the PLURALITY of Gods were FALSE which originated with the Father of LIES.

Justin Martyr NOW believes in the ONLY God and his predicted son Jesus.

It is completely CONTRADICTORY for you to acknowledge that Justin referred to the Greek Gods as MYTHS, as INVENTIONS of the poets like Homer, yet claim he believed the Greek Gods were also figures of History.

PhilosopherJay · 06-02-2010, 01:08 PM

Hi Toto,

Good points all.

My thinking regarding homosexuality and early Christianity is that the preaching of asexuality was just a cover for homosexual Christian communities. Sex was such a natural function in Greco-Roman society that cutting oneself off from it could not have been a real choice for very many young men. It makes more sense to me that the Christian cults that were preaching against sexual activity were actually commonly practicing homosexual activity.

The prohibitions against homosexual activity found in a few passages in Paul is apparently done through mistranslation.
I'm wondering how many attacks there really are against homosexual activity in the pre-Nicean Church fathers as opposed to the nearly universal prohibitions and damnations against heterosexual actitivity.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

...

Martyr is saying that he believes in the myths/stories of Homer and they teach people to suffer for the love of a woman. Being a Christian, and most likely homosexual, Martyr does not believe in suffering for women. Therefore, he does not wish to be instructed in such acts by listening to these stories.

This only confirms that Martyr belonged to a homosexual Christian cult. He is rejecting Greek culture because of its heterosexuality. ...

I don't think this shows that Justin Martyr was homosexual, or that he rejected Greek culture because of its heterosexuality. Greek and also Jewish culture at the time both devalued women. It seems to me that this was just a debating point - that Justin Martyr could score a zinger against the Greek myths by pointing out that the central position of women.

BTW - His name is Justin, and he is called a Martyr because he allegedly was martyred for his faith. Why do you use Martyr as if it were his surname? For example Philo Judaios = Philo the Jew, is never referred to as Judaios.

Huon · 06-02-2010, 01:22 PM

The Greek culture was heterosexual AND homosexual. The religion of the Jews, and later, the religion of the Christians was anti-homosexual. In all these cases, the males were predominant.

aa5874 · 06-02-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,

Good points all.

My thinking regarding homosexuality and early Christianity is that the preaching of asexuality was just a cover for homosexual Christian communities. Sex was such a natural function in Greco-Roman society that cutting oneself off from it could not have been a real choice for very many young men. It makes more sense to me that the Christian cults that were preaching against sexual activity were actually commonly practicing homosexual activity.

The prohibitions against homosexual activity found in a few passages in Paul is apparently done through mistranslation.
I'm wondering how many attacks there really are against homosexual activity in the pre-Nicean Church fathers as opposed to the nearly universal prohibitions and damnations against heterosexual actitivity.

But, how in the world could prohibitions against homosexual activitiy be a mis-translation when the God the father of Jesus did destroy Sodom and Gomorrah in Hebrew Scripture for the practise of SODOMY in Genesis 19?

Homosexual activity was punishable by death in Hebrew Scripture.

Leviticus 20:13 -

Quote:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

This is found in the Pauline writings. Please show what was mis-translated.

Romans 1.26-31

Quote:

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And the authors of the NT and Church writers did NOT preach against heterosexual activity but against fornication and adultery.

Eph 5:31 -

Quote:

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Toto · 06-02-2010, 03:08 PM

Let's not drag this off topic. Homosexuality has been the subject of numerous threads - please use the search function.

PhilosopherJay · 06-03-2010, 05:22 PM

Hi aa5874

If I say that my dog is a mangy mutt, and later say that he is stupid and ridiculous, and later say that he is not a real dog because real dogs obey their masters; one should not put all these statements together and declare that I do not believe in the existence of my dog. In fact the statements indicate the opposite, that I do very much believe in the existence of my dog.

You put together three passages in which Justin criticizes the Greek Gods and poets for very different reasons and ignore the stated reasons of the criticisms and assume the reason is that he believes they do not exist.

In "Discourse to the Greeks 1," as I previously noted, he is primarily rejecting the customs of the Greeks because it supports heterosexual love, which Justin considers weak and immoral. He says nothing about the non-existence of the Gods.

In "Hortatory Address to the Greeks 2, he criticizes the genealogy of Hesiod for starting with the natural element of water for the birth of the Gods. Justin is simply rejecting physics/science in favor of the pre-scientific notion that the Gods or God are unborn and eternal. He is also criticizing Zeus for giving war to men and falling in love with mortals and showing weakness and doing other things Justin considers immoral.

In "Hortatory Address to the Greeks 21, we are in the middle of a rather complex argument primarily trying to prove that Plato knew the work of Moses and his ideas regarding the demiurge (creator of God) came from reading Moses. Here it does appear at first glance that the idea of the Gods are a false invention of the demon/snake in the Garden of Eden

Quote:

the misanthropic demon contrived to deceive them when he said to them, "If you obey me in transgressing the commandment of God, you shall be as gods," calling those gods which had no being, in order that men, supposing that there were other gods in existence, might believe that they themselves could become gods. On this account He said to Moses, "I am the Being," that by the participle "being" He might teach the difference between God who is and those who are not.

This is followed in the next chapter 22 by a discussion of being. By "Being" Justin apparently means "eternal being"

Quote:

For Moses said, " He who is," and Plato, "That which is." But either of the expressions seems to apply to the ever-existent God. For He is the only one who eternally exists, and has no generation. What, then, that other thing is which is contrasted with the ever-existent, and of which he said, "And what that is which is always being generated, but never really is," we must attentively consider. For we shall find him clearly and evidently saying that He who is unbegotten is eternal, but that those that are begotten and made are generated and perish — as he said of the same class, "gods of gods, of whom I am maker"— for he speaks in the following words: "In my opinion, then, we must first define what that is which is always existent and has no birth, and what that is which is always being generated but never really is. The former, indeed, which is apprehended by reflection combined with reason, always exists in the same way; while the latter, on the other hand, is conjectured by opinion formed by the perception of the senses unaided by reason, since it never really is, but is coming into being and perishing." These expressions declare to those who can rightly understand them the death and destruction of the gods that have been brought into being. And I think it necessary to attend to this also, that Plato never names him the creator, but the fashioner of the gods, although, in the opinion of Plato, there is considerable difference between these two. For the creator creates the creature by his own capability and power, being in need of nothing else; but the fashioner frames his production when he has received from matter the capability for his work.

Justin is trying to make the point that the real god is eternally existing and never made, while the Greek and Roman gods were made from the Demiurge (Plato) or water (Homer). Being generated they are not eternal and therefore not real gods, but false gods.

Once again, because Justin does not believe that the Greek and Roman gods are real (i.e. eternally existing) Gods does not mean he does not believe in their temporal existence. For him the Greek and Roman gods were created and will perish. That makes them not-Gods. It does not make them fiction.

If I say, "Julius Caesar was not a God," I am not saying that Julius Caesar did not exist. I am merely not classifying him in the category of God.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

You are, I believe, retrojecting ideas into Martyr's text that weren't there when he wrote them.

Justin Martyr lists a series of actions found in Homer. These actions all involve men suffering for the love of a woman. He says that he doesn't see this as virtuous.

Justin Martyr in the very first line wrote that he has SEPARATED himself from the customs of the Greeks.

"Discourse to the Greeks"1

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" 2

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI

Quote:

This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods, had its origin with the father of lies.

God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is."....

So, based on Justin the compositions of the Greek poets were MADNESS, RIDICULOUS and the PLURALITY of Gods were FALSE which originated with the Father of LIES.

Justin Martyr NOW believes in the ONLY God and his predicted son Jesus.

It is completely CONTRADICTORY for you to acknowledge that Justin referred to the Greek Gods as MYTHS, as INVENTIONS of the poets like Homer, yet claim he believed the Greek Gods were also figures of History.

aa5874 · 06-03-2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

..If I say, "Julius Caesar was not a God," I am not saying that Julius Caesar did not exist. I am merely not classifying him in the category of God.

And if you say Julius Caesar was a myth then you are saying Julius Caesar did not exist.

Well what did Justin Martyr say about the Gods of the poets?

He called them myths.

Justin Martyr named the MYTHS of HOMER.

"The Discourse to The Greeks"1

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God.

For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance. For any one who becomes the scholar of your most eminent instructor, is more beset by difficulties than all men besides.

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis, and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis. And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo. And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice.

And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears. Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the amour.

Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer.

For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.

These are some of the MYTHS of Homer.
1. Hector
2. the son of Thetis
3. Chryseis
4. Briseis
5. Helen
6. Agamemnon
7. Pelides
8. Apollo
9. Ulysses
10. Ajax, son of Telamon
11.Polyxena

They did NOT EXIST.

andrewcriddle · 06-04-2010, 12:45 PM

It may be worth noting that the status of "Discourse to the Greeks" and "Hortatory Address to the Greeks" as genuine works of Justin Martyr is dubious.

Andrew Criddle

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06-02-2010, 01:22 PM	#15
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The Greek culture was heterosexual AND homosexual. The religion of the Jews, and later, the religion of the Christians was anti-homosexual. In all these cases, the males were predominant.

06-02-2010, 03:08 PM	#17
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Let's not drag this off topic. Homosexuality has been the subject of numerous threads - please use the search function.

06-04-2010, 12:45 PM	#20
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	It may be worth noting that the status of "Discourse to the Greeks" and "Hortatory Address to the Greeks" as genuine works of Justin Martyr is dubious. Andrew Criddle

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