Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hjalti · 05-09-2012, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubtingt

Several people have commented that the key difference lies in whether History has the same legitimacy as Science in terms of deferring to consensus.

I'd argue that Biblical Scholarship is not a legitimate subfield of History.
What % of the "Biblical Scholars" even have a Ph.D. in History from a secular University and are actually just Historians in general who happen to have a specialty in historical issues surrounding religion?

I'd contend that if Biblical Scholarship was a legit field it would be simply a sub-field of History that emerged organically from historical analyses of the relevant time periods, performed largely by people who just generally went into the field of History and began studying the role of such texts in the history societies.
Biblical studies seems to legit History what "Parapsychology" is to the field of Psychology, and what ID is to Biology (I bet Theological Seminaries will soon be granting degrees in "Intelligent Design Scholarship" and the OP will claim we need to take their consensus about ID seriously.

Yeah... that's at least what one suspects when one considers stuff like the fact that N.T. Wright was the chair of the historical Jesus secion of SBL for some years. Yes, N.T. Wright! And then we also have scholars, who although not blatant apologists like Wright, make far-fetched claims like being able to know the exact words Jesus used in the raising of Jairus' daughter.

aa5874 · 05-09-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Well, I'm certainly no expert, but there are several alternatives to the darwinian model, if I'm not mistaken, such as Lamarckianism, Punctuated Equilibria, Pan-Spermia... Aliens

and not one alternitive holds a credible position.

So, please explain why HJers use the Creationist's Bible for their alternative model for Bible Jesus???

The HJ model is indeed like Lamarckianism, Punctuated Equilibria, Pan-Spermia... Aliens

Who would believe that a 21st century supposed leading HJ Scholar, EHRMAN, would use the Creationist handbook called the Bible as history for his MODEL of an HJ???

What absurdity!!! How illogical!!! The Alternative Model for Bible Jesus is Jesus from the Bible.

Something has gone radically wrong with Scholarship--it is Lamarckianism.

AthenaAwakened · 05-09-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Athena:

For your analogy between Jesus Scholars and Harry Potter Scholars to have weight you would need to show that Harry Potter Scholars believe that Harry Potter actually existed.

No, I don't.

Quote:

I don't think you can but I'd love to see you try.

Don't have to.

Quote:

The point Abe is making, and quite well I might say is that there are no Jesus scholars at accredited universities who are also mythers. It is a measure of how fringe a belief system is when you need to say all recognized scholars are wrong about this.

Steve

Being an expert on something doesn't make that something real.

Now there may have been a prophet named Joshua in Galilee during the century or so before the fall of Masada. Probably was, common name and mystery cults were all the rage.

But the Jesus we see in the bible, ...
the Jesus most people think of, most Christians worship ...

uh, no.

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Now there may have been a prophet named Joshua in Galilee during the century or so before the fall of Masada. Probably was, common name and mystery cults were all the rage.

But the Jesus we see in the bible, ...
the Jesus most people think of, most Christians worship ...

uh, no.

how about a yeshua fighting agaisnt the corrupt jewish government due to the roman infection in the temple during passover.

WOW!! just like the legend states. LOL

this event had the possibility to be witnessed by up to 400,000 jews.

this would create a whirlwind of oral tradition regarding this jewish teachers martyred death, a man who would be deified for fighting for the common hard working man.

it would also create varied stories and legends in the area in jewish and roman circles WOW!!! just like we have.

AthenaAwakened · 05-09-2012, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Now there may have been a prophet named Joshua in Galilee during the century or so before the fall of Masada. Probably was, common name and mystery cults were all the rage.

But the Jesus we see in the bible, ...
the Jesus most people think of, most Christians worship ...

uh, no.

how about a yeshua fighting agaisnt the corrupt jewish government due to the roman infection in the temple during passover.

Two things

Is that the JC most people believe in?
What records are there of this radical? Sounds like a cool dude. I like that dude. But is this dude historically documented?

Quote:

WOW!! just like the legend states. LOL

this event had the possibility to be witnessed by up to 400,000 jews.

this would create a whirlwind of oral tradition regarding this jewish teachers martyred death, a man who would be deified for fighting for the common hard working man.

it would also create varied stories and legends in the area in jewish and roman circles WOW!!! just like we have.

:devil:

outhouse · 05-09-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Two things

Is that the JC most people believe in?

No.

Quote:

What records are there of this radical? Sounds like a cool dude. I like that dude. But is this dude historically documented?

yes quite well in fact.

luke states he was put on a cross for perverting the nation [preaching to tax collectors tellingthem to stop raping the people]

and tax evasion.

the temple was the bank, he was put on a cross for tipping the bank tellers tables over trying to insite a riot.

he hung out with tax collectos, and had a zealot as a disciple.

shortly before he death his is questioned as to why he doesnt pay his taxes. he never did pay and sent peter fishing instead of paying

money had more to do with jesus death then theology.

aa5874 · 05-09-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

[

how about a yeshua fighting agaisnt the corrupt jewish government due to the roman infection in the temple during passover.

WOW!! just like the legend states. LOL

this event had the possibility to be witnessed by up to 400,000 jews.

this would create a whirlwind of oral tradition regarding this jewish teachers martyred death, a man who would be deified for fighting for the common hard working man.

it would also create varied stories and legends in the area in jewish and roman circles WOW!!! just like we have.

What a load of BS.

You FORGOT that HJ was a LITTLE KNOWN preacher man.

ALL of a sudden the LITTLE KNOWN preacher may have had 400,000 witnesses.

Please, go and TALK to EHRMAN because he doesn't know what you have IMAGINED.

Your stories are getting more and more outrageous.

Guest46854 · 05-09-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian63

Those who advocate for Jesus mythicism, from what I have seen, acknowledge that they are arguing against the mainstream, against the expert consensus, etc. They think that the consensus is wrong, biased, etc. however (which is certainly very plausible). I tend to believe that a historical Jesus existed, but only for that appeal to consensus reason mentioned by Logical. I certainly am not familiar enough with the field to make an adequate case based on my own investigation.

It is the partly the same reason why, when most of us who are not familiar with automotive mechanics experience car problems, we take it to a mechanic instead of researching ourselves from the ground-up how cars work, and then try to fix it ourselves. It is a matter of practicality that we rely on the prior work of others and their beliefs to form our own beliefs. You can try to not ever depend on opinions of others for any of your own, but it will make for a life much harder to live.

Brian

WHY do you tend to believe?

There is evidence to lend credibility for evolution and global warming.
I tend to (want)to believe in Nessy the Loch Ness Monster, and have much more ''evidence'' for that lovely than ever produced for the HJ.

So, WHY?
:huh:

Kapyong · 05-11-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

One strange exception to that is the historical Jesus issue. Here many atheists (including prominent ones like Dan Barker) oppose ...

It's not just atheists.
Some theists, like me, doubt it too.

Kapyong

Kapyong · 05-11-2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Grog:
It might be better to say Paul claimed to have received his "Gospel" by revelation from Jesus but he also says that after three years he spent 15 days with Peter and James. Unless he is lying about the Peter and James bit he would certainly have learned about Jesus then.
Steve

He WOULD have...
i.e. WOULD have - IF Jesus existed in the first place.

But Paul says he did NOT learn about Jesus from any man, but from revelation.

Kapyong

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