Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 09-15-2006, 01:59 PM

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Christian Byzantines

http://www.libraries.gr/nonmembers/e..._bizadinos.htm

May we be careful with this term Byzantine? We are actually discussing the Roman Empire.

It would seem xianity had little or nothing to do with the Byzantine libraries.

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From Constantine the Great to early Byzantine humanism

The fortunes of books and libraries were always closely bound up with education and the government's policy towards the intellectual world. In Byzantium, the triumph of Christianity over paganism brought no fundamental changes to education; the methods and teaching materials used in secondary and higher education continued to be those associated with the tradition of Late Antiquity. This was the reason that the teachers, orators and philosophers who travelled to the major intellectual centres of the Orient (Antioch, Gaza, Alexandria and Caesarea) began to flock to Constantinople, where they created learned circles and opened schools and small academies that attracted large numbers of pupils and auditors. In this favourable climate Constantine the Great's son, Constantius II, considered that alongside economic development there should also be an intellectual revival. To coordinate the efforts made in this direction he selected a singular personality: Themistio.
Themistio fulfilled the emperor's expectations and, in recognition of the latter's wide-ranging support for the cultivation of letters, he wrote to the senate in Constantinople that Constantius had made the capital `the common home of education and culture'. One of Themistio's actions was, with the emperor's support, to establish a scriptorium employing calligraphers and conservators, with the aims of collecting together the works of Greek literature, of restoring worn and damaged papyrus scrolls, and of reproducing many of them in multiple copies. During the course of this enormous copying project, many papyrus scrolls will have been translated into parchment manuscripts, and it is not impossible that many long works were abridged and received the form of epitomes from as early as the 4th century. It is not recorded whether all this material was assembled within a single library, but it seems probable that a university library was created, possibly functioning under the aegis of the emperor.
Constantius was succeeded on the throne of Constantinople by Julian (361-363), an admirer of the ancient tradition and an ardent collector of books. He began in his childhood to compile an important library and it is indicative that when his teacher, the famous Kappadokis was murdered in Alexandria, in 361, Julian ordered that his books should be found and sent to him in Antioch. Julian is the first Byzantine emperor who is known to have created a personal library, which he took care to house in a special area: the king's stoa. It may be concluded, moreover, from the fact that both Greeks and Latins were employed as librarians and copyists, that it was the intention of the Byzantine emperors to continue the tradition of the double library (with Greek and Latin sections).

Clivedurdle · 09-15-2006, 02:02 PM

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Three kinds of library can normally be recognised in every monastery: the library of the katholikon, the archive library, and the personal libraries of the monks. The katholikon library, which formed the core of all monastery libraries, contained the purely liturgical books, and the numbers of books in it could vary strikingly, in view of the fact that it was the main library in the monastery. This kind of library was normally housed in the sacristy, which was usually adjacent to the katholikon.
The first archive library for which we have secure evidence is that of the Akoimiton Monastery in Constantinople, which was founded by Syrians about 420 and was one of the earliest monasteries in the capital. In it were stored documents connected with synods and other matters, letters, and items relating to the real estate and privileges of the monastery. These two libraries, the archive and katholikon libraries, were enriched over the years and eventually existed alongside each other.
One fundamental source of enrichment of the monastery libraries was formed by the personal collections of the monks, which were owned not only by ordinary monks, but also by learned abbots and important laymen, including even emperors, who decided to end their days in a monastery. To keep them company in this withdrawal, they had not only their hassock, but also one or more of their favourite books, which reverted as a rule to the monastery library.

So even the stuff that did survive might have been part of an emperors personal collection....

Malachi151 · 09-15-2006, 02:17 PM

I would certianly take issue with this statement:

Quote:

In Byzantium, the triumph of Christianity over paganism brought no fundamental changes to education; the methods and teaching materials used in secondary and higher education continued to be those associated with the tradition of Late Antiquity.

However it depends on how it was intended. Within the first 50 to 100 years this mas probably true, if you are talking about the first 100 since the time of Constantine.

Julian was an anti-Christian Emperor who tried to restore "paganism" and personally wrote several works against Christianity, so I'm not sure what that has to do with any of this.

There is record of many "heretical" schools being shut down by Christians, so I'm not too sure about this statement that "the triumph of Christianity over paganism brought no fundamental changes to education".

Roger Pearse · 09-15-2006, 02:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Bede

Nope. Neither Euclid, Ptolemy, Plato, Aristotle, Galen or Simplicius were ever burnt or banned AFAIK. Sources for your contention please. I doubt any turned up in Ireland either given they were wrtten in Greek. The vast majority of these writers works have been preserved by Christian scribes in the original Greek langauge. They were all translated into Latin by Christians in the 12th and 13th century.

And into Syriac, then into Arabic, by Christians in the Near East in the 10th century.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 09-15-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Actually I quoted Origen and Augustine, but Clement agreed. So that's three of the most influential of church fathers says pagan philosophy is OK.

One could also consider St. Basil of Caesarea Address to young men on the right use of Greek literature. Not to mention that the entire Byzantine education system was based on pagan literature, even including the works of Julian the Apostate; so much so that even in 1453 the emperor and his court spoke Attic Greek.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 09-15-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

That's an interesting point. I think it certainly accounts for the survival of Beowulf and the Islandic Sagas. I'm dubious it would help much with scientific writings.

Well, Severus Sebokht preserves chunks of Aratus in Syriac precisely to show that his science is better than Greek science. In the process he prides himself on the babylonian (i.e. syrian) origin of astronomy.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 09-15-2006, 02:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Bede

Apart of Virgil and recent papyri finds, we have no classical manuscripts from before about 800AD. Everything we have was copied by Christians at some point. See Reynolds and Wilson “Scribes and Scholars” for the full story.

Not quite: think of that 5th century ms. of the 5th decade of Livy. But it's broadly true.

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World class: John Philoponus, Hunayn ibn Ishaq

Here are two works on the astrolabe, one by John Philoponus, one by Severus Sebokht. Manuscript Paris Syriaque 346 contains almost exclusively scientific material, mainly by Severus Sebokht but also including portions of Ptolemy, some stuff by George Bishop of the Arab tribes, and Bar Hebraeus. Most of the material by Severus Sebokht was written ca. 660 AD, and includes the first mention of Arabic numbers, in a chapter probably addressed to the priest Basil of Cyprus. A fairly full list of his works is present more or less in my notes on the man, here. It includes works on the astrolabe and the constellations, works on philosophy, and he may also have translated the work of Paul the Persian on logic.

Very little has been published or translated; the work on the astrolabe was published and translated into French; the English translation above was made from the French text. A French translation of "on the constellations" was made, but no text published (I am translating the French text into English myself at the moment). None of the rest of his works have been published or translated, apart from a few snippets.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151 · 09-15-2006, 03:05 PM

The works of John Philoponus? That's what you are bringing forward as your evidence that "Christians embraced science and philosophy"?

Once, you prove my point. Thank you.

Philoponus was a classically educated Alexandrian living in the 5th century, on the cusp of the major changes, and by the 7th century his works were declared anathema by the church, banned, and forgotten.

Good work on proving my case, thanks again.

Malachi151 · 09-15-2006, 03:16 PM

Oh, let's go for a little more on Philoponus.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philoponus/

Quote:

Philoponus' intellectual career began when he was a pupil of the Neoplatonic philosopher Ammonius, son of Hermias, who had been taught by Proclus at Athens and was head of the school at Alexandria. Some of his commentaries profess to be based on Ammonius' lectures, but others give more room to Philoponus' own ideas. Eventually, he transformed the usual format of apologetic commentary into a discourse of open criticism, in the course of which he examined and repudiated fundamental Aristotelian-Neoplatonic tenets, most prominently the doctrine of the eternity of the world. This independent-minded or even disrespectful approach to philosophical commentary, as well as the conclusions he drew, antagonized Philoponus' pagan colleagues; their opposition may have compelled him to abandon his philosophical career in the 530's. Philoponus never succeeded his teacher Ammonius as head of the school. He devoted the second half of his life to engaging in the theological debates of his time. Ironically, the orthodox church condemned him posthumously as a heretic (in 680-81) because of his tritheistic interpretation of the trinitarian dogma: through a reading of the relevant concepts in this debate (nature, substance, hupostasis) in a strictly Aristotelian way, Philoponus was led to enunciate not a single god in three persons (Father, Son, Spirit), but three separate divinities.

Reading Philoponus as well as the writings of his great adversary Simplicius, one gets the sense that in the 6th century CE, traditional pagan Greek learning had become desperately insular. The intense incompatibilities between pagan learning and Christian dogma are readily visible on the philosophical surface of Philoponus' work as he struggles to hold his faith accountable to reason. Although his mode of thinking betrays a strong Aristotelian influence, it also displays a certain doctrinal affinity to Plato stripped of the weighty accretions of Neoplatonic interpretation.

You see, you are trying to hold out various singular examples of the rare reed who stood against the wind, but the wind was definately blowing against the traditions of reason.

Your example is a Christian who was declared a heretic, whose works were banned and forgotten. That's not much of a good example when you are trying to prove that "Christianty didn't lead to the Closing of the Western Mind".

And again, your examples all come from early periords, prior to the total domination of Chrisitany, while some "pagan" learning was still taking place an still had a place in the world, though it was clearly in the process of being stammped out.

lpetrich · 09-15-2006, 07:33 PM

Bede seems to be fond of the converse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, in which he essentially declares anyone he likes to be a True Xian, no matter how heretical he'd otherwise consider them.

The trouble was that just about everybody literate in Europe beyond a certain point was at least nominally a Xian -- what other religion would they have believed in?

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09-15-2006, 03:05 PM	#58
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	The works of John Philoponus? That's what you are bringing forward as your evidence that "Christians embraced science and philosophy"? Once, you prove my point. Thank you. Philoponus was a classically educated Alexandrian living in the 5th century, on the cusp of the major changes, and by the 7th century his works were declared anathema by the church, banned, and forgotten. Good work on proving my case, thanks again.

09-15-2006, 07:33 PM	#60
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Bede seems to be fond of the converse of the No True Scotsman fallacy, in which he essentially declares anyone he likes to be a True Xian, no matter how heretical he'd otherwise consider them. The trouble was that just about everybody literate in Europe beyond a certain point was at least nominally a Xian -- what other religion would they have believed in?

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