steve_bnk

But that is the point, Christians do not follow Jewsh dietery rules, yet are considered Abaramic as are Musilms.

On the contray one of the constants through civilization from the early Christians is the bible, it is the one common reference reference people woild have read.

Have you read either the Bible or Koran in any detail? Have you actulay talked to a Muslim knowedgeable in his/her theology?

semiopen

Just a side point Steve.

It is difficult to talk to a Muslim about theology. I'm not clear if there is even a biblical studies equivalent in Islamic academia. (Wonder if Islamic academia is an oxymoron.)

Maimonides writes that it is ok for a Jew to go into a Mosque because the God is the same but that the bible is changed, so it is not ok to discuss the bible with one.

This seems like good practical advice, whatever the merit of the underlying premise.

steve_bnk

I read Maimonides years back, I bleive he also said back then that if scince and scriptual interpe3tion are inb conflict, interpretaion has to cahnge.

Admittedely a small sample among educated Muslim technocrats, the people I have talked with have all been eqasy to debate faith with.

As an agnostic I approach those of faith with an attitiode of mutual respect and an ineretst in undertsnading which I have always had returned. If as one with a hostile bias towards relgion, which I do not have on persoanl level, then you will likley get hostility back.

I beliive there is a mosque in or near the Isreali parliament so Mulsim members, of which there are a number, can fulfill their daily obligations.

IAJ will not articulate his overal belifs, but seems to be enthralled by the ancient Jews, has a belief in a creator, and Genesis, with interpations of Genesis being the foudations of modern science.

IamJoseph

Yes, but that is a self-declared voluntary and improvised factor, which emerged with the assumption Judaism was dead post the Roman war. The more applicable factor concerns their conclusion about Jews - they are targeted as unbelievers and infidels - and this is not because they do not follow 'all' the laws from the Abrahamic belief - just the reverse applies here.

Agreed this applies today. But the christian bible was forbidden to christians for its first 800 years.

Just excerpts - and it scared the living daylights of me. I'm still cofused if jews are born of the devil [Gospels] or apes [Quran]. :banghead:

IamJoseph

This was said while he was exiled in Egypt. But certainly, the ONE God premise rules, and this is more applicable with Islam than Christianity, no matter what anyone says. There is a closer cultural/moral/ethical affinity with Judaism and Christianity, while a closer one with Islam with its higher Monotheistic threshold.

Depends what questions were put on the table. E.g. which is the Jewish homeland and who are the more Palestinian people - Jews or Muslims.

Now show us the equivalence by Muslims? :banghead:


Yes, quite accurately put. I know of no other theological document, ancient or modern, which better fits as the foundations for science - do you?

semiopen

I'm not clear what significance exiled has here. His family wandered for awhile when the Almohades conquered his home town, but this was when he was between 10 and 20. His family finally left Spain. Everything he wrote was while he was "exiled".

It is interesting to imagine what he would think if he was alive today, since so many of the things that he thought were true have been refuted. These include:

The Pentateuch was not written by Moses.
The Bible was changed often during history.
There was no unbroken oral tradition from Moses to the writing of the Talmud.

One might speculate that he might become a modern orthodox Jew, with a rational view of Jewish history, one could also argue that he might be an atheist. I agree with IAJ that he would defibnitely not become a Christian or Muslim.

semiopen

Maybe I'm missing something in this thread but...

Aren't Christianity and Islam Abrahamic by definition?

Abrahamic_religions

Genesis 17:5 goes

Is there something later that says something like:

storytime

Well Joseph, Jesus did say to the Pharisees, "ye are of your father the devil". Jesus didn't include all Jews, just the ones he debated with in the sect called Pharisees and Sadducees. We are not told specifically which "sect" Jesus the Jew belonged to if any one of these.. Jesus also warned his disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees, Sadducees and even Herod. Jesus wanted his disciples to follow his teaching only, which might be understandable as the Pharisees taught their disciples a different doctrine to follow. So there is a clash of Jewish belief portrayed in the sects of Judaism. How are we to know who was teaching correctly and who was not? The Pharisees, Sadducees, or Jesus?

I agree with your assessment about the bible. Your ancient Judaism should scare the pants off you in its death-cult. If those laws were observed today, you'd probably not be here whistling dixie, so to speak.

storytime

I'm wondering if the underlying premise is that used in the OT that prohibits "speaking" to non Jews about laws, tradition, or whatever Jewish. The thought being that the Jews would somewhat be influenced by other doctrines and other gods. But in those OT days, would Jews have been allowed to enter those places of "idols" at all?

IamJoseph

You may read it as you like - but I see your laffable denial as a quagmired plight - you cannot admit this today because it will leave genuine believing christians in an abbys.

The truth is, this was directed at all Jews, it did culminate in antisemitism, millions of innocent peoples were murdered, and most christians chanted VE VERE NOT AVARE. Calling the Father of Judaism as the devil is typical Romanism - in fact the Father of the universe has become a cursory after thought for Christians today - how Roman can it get!

The Pharisees were absolute angels compared to Europeans - they sacrificed themselves along with their families without seccumbing to Rome - omitted in the Gospels!