Amos

Hi Soul Invictus, it's an old perspective but to defend it you must know the rest of the story.

Soul Invictus

PM me.

Kilgore Trout

First of all, jesus was an invalid sacrifice under Jewish law.
See this link for some of the reasons..... http://home.comcast.net/~messiahtruth/jcsac.html

The biggest reason is that jesus is not the proper species. The Torah says exactly what god wants as a sin sacrifice and there is no mention of a human or a god-man.

Also all these ideas you have come out of the NT, mainly the Book of Hebrews. There is no evidence in the Torah that the sacrifices were just symbolic and were just preparing for some "super sacrifice" that would make them not needed. The Torah says to follow the law FOREVER, as I have to point out to you christians all the time and you can never understand. The book of Hebrews says the blood of bulls can never take away sins, so it's calling god a liar because it says in the Torah that the blood of bulls can take away sins. This is why you are not a Jew; because you have so little respect for the Jewish god that you actually follow a book that claims god is a liar.

Bernard Muller

From the Creed of the Council of Constantinople (381 AD)
"And [we believe] in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins , [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

I do NOT see "one Baptism for the remission of the original sin"

Best regards, Bernard

Amos

Hello Bernard, yes one Baptism for the remission of sin. Notice that we have the Sacrament of Confession that includes the forgiveness of sin but our Baptism is the Sacrament that later removes our sin nature and therefore our original sin.

Bernard Muller

I think you miss my point Amos. The Constantinople Credo says "sins" plural. So it cannot be the original sin.
Best regards, Bernard

Amos

But Original Sin is not a sin in itself but it is the capacity to sin and to make sin thinkable the laws were needed (ie. no law equals no sin because sin is a violation of religious law).

So now, the sacrament of Confession deals with the forgivensess of sin and the Sacrament of Baptism deals with the redemption of sin. Go figure.

Doctor X

So . . . baptism 'n all that which removes Original Sin removes the capacity to sin.

Neat.

--J.D.

Amos

Well yes, but that would have to be Catholic Baptism. To be born of water and spirit is required to reach the fulness of salvation (according to Catholic doctrine) and to be born of the spirit outside the church is to receive salvation without the ability to work out your own salvation (still Catholic doctrine).

Yes, it is a neet concept, really, wherein sin is needed to remove our capacity to sin. Remember here that the laws were given to Moses not to stop sin, but to convict man of sin and for this to be possible the law must be written as if in stone upon our soul where they will fuction as an anvil that creates a blow when the hammer (sin) strikes.

We kind of know that sin is needed for justification (Gal.2:17) and sin is good because the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only. According to these precepts if salvation is desired the concept sin must remain clear to us and we must violate often and this maybe is what confession is all about (you don't really want to know).

So yes and no. Catholic life is journey where upon our first day we are given a white Baptism candle and our last day will be when we recognize that same white candle in the advent wreath of our Christ-mass celebration.

Bernard Muller

I am shocked. Do you mean it is necessary for Catholics to sin (many times) to get salvation? Really.

Best regards, Bernard