Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xaxxat · 10-08-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

You're not thinking of Abraham's breast, are you?

No, I don't think so. I think it was mentioned in Karen Armstrong's History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk). I don't have a copy so I can't search for it.

Boro Nut · 10-08-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

I always love how YEC's spin this story. Since it comes right before the story of Noah's flood, they argue that one of the reasons God sent the flood was to wipe this "evil" species of supermen off the face of the planet. The problem is that the Christians then have to explain how this race of "giants" makes a reappearance at various points later in the Bible.

And why have no fossils ever been discovered of any of these "giants"?

... and why weren't they on the ark if they weren't entirely human? Perhaps they had no nostrils and breathed instead through stomata. Hence the phrase, 'Yes, we have no stomata'.

Boro Nut

Magdlyn · 10-08-2007, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Names_of_God_in_Judaism#Shaddai

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In the Septuagint and other early translations Shaddai was translated with words meaning "Almighty". The root word "shadad" (שדד) means "to overpower" or "to destroy". This would give Shaddai the meaning of "destroyer" as one of the aspects of God. Thus it is essentially an epithet.

Harriet Lutzky has presented evidence that Shaddai was an attribute of a Semitic goddess, linking the epithet with Hebrew šad "breast" as "the one of the Breast", as Asherah at Ugarit is "the one of the Womb".[9]

Another theory is that Shaddai is a derivation of a Semitic stem that appears in the Akkadian shadû ("mountain") and shaddā`û or shaddû`a ("mountain-dweller"), one of the names of Amurru. This theory was popularized by W. F. Albright but was somewhat weakened when it was noticed that the doubling of the medial d is first documented only in the Neo-Assyrian period. However, the doubling in Hebrew might possibly be secondary. In this theory God is seen as inhabiting a mythical holy mountain, a concept not unknown in ancient West Asian mythology (see El), and also evident in the Syriac Christian writings of Ephrem the Syrian, who places Eden on an inaccessible mountaintop.

An alternative view proposed by Albright is that the name is connected to shadayim which means "breasts" in Hebrew. It may thus be connected to the notion of God’s [sic] fertility and blessings of the human race. In several instances it is connected with fruitfulness: "May God Almighty [El Shaddai] bless you and make you fruitful and increase your numbers…" (Gen. 28:3). "I am God Almighty [El Shaddai]: be fruitful and increase in number" (Gen. 35:11). "By the Almighty [El Shaddai] who will bless you with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lies beneath, blessings of the breasts [shadayim] and of the womb [racham]" (Gen. 49:25).

"Shadday as a Goddess Epithet" by Harriet Lutzky Vetus Testamentum

Thank you Toto. Note the subtle misogyny in the article which puts the most sensible "breast" meaning last, as El Shaddai's name occurs solely in context with fertility. Shad[ay] (singular of shadayim) sounds more like Shaddai than either shadad or shadu. In fact, as far as I can tell, it is identical.

As we know from reading the Hebrew Bible, it is one long tale of the conquest of a male war/fire god against several powerful and fertile goddesses.

Clouseau · 10-09-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Ah, but isn't there a verse somewhere that says Yahweh takes someone to his breast and "suckles" him?

I don't think so. Jesus likened himself to a hen gathering chicks under his wings, but hens are not mammals. It's one thing to say that 'shaddai' may be derived from a word meaning breast, quite another to say that the deity known as 'El Shaddai' was feminine. It is very clear that the patriarchs did not view their deity as a female goddess, and such notions are pure fantasy, perhaps inspired by the feminist movement. The contexts of the name's patriarchal and post-patriarchal uses are far more significant, and there is not a glimmer of suggestion of suckling in those. The context is usually one of general or spiritual benison, not milk, mountains, rain or destruction.

In any case, the appellation was 'unofficial' and applied to a deity as yet unrevealed, and was probably generic, used by ancients of all sorts.

'God also said to Moses, "I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them."'

Understanding the meaning of 'Yahweh' is therefore much more constructive in understanding the Biblical deity, and, I suggest, is more useful for determining the likely meaning of 'El Shaddai' to the patriarchs than semantic studies of 'shaddai' can be. My previous post on this matter was made in that context.

Magdlyn · 10-09-2007, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

I don't think so. Jesus likened himself to a hen gathering chicks under his wings, but hens are not mammals. It's one thing to say that 'shaddai' may be derived from a word meaning breast, quite another to say that the deity known as 'El Shaddai' was feminine.

Why would a male god be named after his breasts?

Quote:

It is very clear that the patriarchs did not view their deity as a female goddess, and such notions are pure fantasy, perhaps inspired by the feminist movement. The contexts of the name's patriarchal and post-patriarchal uses are far more significant, and there is not a glimmer of suggestion of suckling in those. The context is usually one of general or spiritual benison, not milk

The context is fertility: womb, seed, procreation and sustenance. "The blessings of the breasts..." (Gen 49:25) what would that be, if not milk, in your opinion?

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mountains, rain or destruction.

This is correct. That is why breasts is the correct root, imo.

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In any case, the appellation was 'unofficial' and applied to a deity as yet unrevealed, and was probably generic, used by ancients of all sorts.

Pure speculation. El Shaddai was the specific name she announced to Avram the first time she revealed herself. Where do you get the idea of a "probably generic god, used by ancients of all sorts?" This is just god-bashing.

Quote:

'God also said to Moses, "I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them."'

This seems to be to be redaction of the most obvious sort, as does the garbled account of Jacob's pillow/ladder scene, where El Shaddai turns into YHWH and back into El, when supposedly YHWH had not revealed himself by the tetragrammaton as yet. I note where the substitutions were obviously made.

Genesis 28

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Yitzchak (Isaac) called Ya`akov (Jacob), and blessed him... May El Shaddai bless you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, that you may be a company of peoples...
Ya`akov went out from Be'er-Sheva, and went toward Haran. He came to a certain place, and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. He took one of the stones of the place, and put it under his head, and lay down in that place to sleep.

He dreamed. Behold, a stairway set up on the eretz (land), and the top of it reached to heaven. Behold, the angels of El ascending and descending on it.
Behold, the LORD (El Shaddai) stood above it, and said, "I am the LORD, (El Shaddai) the God of Avraham your father, and the God of Yitzchak. (???) The land whereon you lie, to you will I give it, and to your seed. Your seed will be as the dust of the eretz, and you will spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south. In you and in your seed will all the families of the eretz be blessed.

Ya`akov awakened out of his sleep, and he said, "Surely the LORD (El Shaddai) is in this place, and I didn't know it." He was afraid, and said, "How dreadful is this place! This is none other than El's house, and this is the gate of heaven.

Ya`akov rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil on the top of it. (phallus?)
He called the name of that place Beit-El, (House of El)...

Ya`akov vowed a vow, saying, "If El will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on (a mother's role), so that I come again to my father's house in shalom, and the LORD (El Shaddai) will be my El, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be El's house..."

Why all the focus on "YHWH" (ie: the LORD) in this tale, when Jacob was sent on his way with the blessings of El Shaddai on his head? Retrofitting, nothing less.

Quote:

Understanding the meaning of 'Yahweh' is therefore much more constructive in understanding the Biblical deity, and, I suggest, is more useful for determining the likely meaning of 'El Shaddai' to the patriarchs than semantic studies of 'shaddai' can be. My previous post on this matter was made in that context.

Your bias is showing. The Hebrew Bible is one long diatribe against several female dieties. And this thread is a discussion of El, and now El Shaddai, not YHWH, so let's please try to stay on topic.

Clouseau · 10-09-2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

I don't think so. Jesus likened himself to a hen gathering chicks under his wings, but hens are not mammals. It's one thing to say that 'shaddai' may be derived from a word meaning breast, quite another to say that the deity known as 'El Shaddai' was feminine.

Quote:

Why would a male god be named after his breasts?

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