Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from the Abrahamic Religions forum:

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....39#post6219339

Regarding "the establishment of all of the promised land to Israel," there is not any past or present evidence that Hebrews have ever occupied all of the land of Canaan, or even most of it for that matter.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 17

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Partition of Palestine in 1948 did not grant Jews anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and today, Jews do not occupy anywhere near all of the land of Canaan.

Verse 7 says "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." I request that arnoldo, or anyone else, define what everlasting covenant means in that context. During the early part of the 2nd century, Titus went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. If part of God's convenant was to protect Jews, he obviously changed his mind on that occasion.

Johnny Skeptic

I was hoping that arnoldo would make some posts in this thread.

bacht

There is evidence for the existence of settled kingdoms in Samaria and Judah before the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, but the extent claimed by the Former Prophets was never occupied by Jews until Hasmonean times afaik (ie. east of the Jordan, north to Syria, south into Sinai).

The theory that much of the Torah originated in the 7th C includes the idea that Israelite history was embellished and exaggerated by Josiah's followers to support his territorial claims and the centralization of power and worship in Jerusalem. If so then the stories about Abraham, Jacob, Joshua and David shouldn't be read literally.

Since the 8th C ce Jerusalem has become an international city of worship to three biblical religions, it's no longer a predominantly Jewish site, so a "normal" political arrangement might not be possible

neilgodfrey

This is an interesting test to see who really does believe the Bible. 1 Kings 4:20-21 is an unambiguous claim that all the land promised to Abraham was ruled by Solomon:

Compare Genesis 22:17; 15:18

Bulls eye. Fulfilled prophecy. Bible is true.

N

sschlichter

Some would argue that the fulfillment is the height of David's career, however there does not appear to be any literal sense that the land promised to Abraham was ever possessed entirely.

My view is that the fulfillment is in Rev 21:7 - things yet to be.

Minimalist

This is true. However, there is no evidence at all that these kingdoms were "Jewish" in any recognizable sense of the word. To the extent that we can tell, they were Canaanites worshiping the same pantheon of gods as all the others.

Annoying to the fundies I know, but all they have is their fictional bible to sustain their claim and no archaeological evidence to back them up.

boneyard bill

Abram descendents would include the descendents of Ishmael.

storytime

Abraham had three wives - Sarah, Hagar, Kenturah, plus many cocubines.

Ishmael via Hagar/Abraham was made a great nation in his godly blessing before Issac was born and later sent away to his own inheritance. The promise of a great nation then went to Isaac via Sarah in his own inheritance because Isaac could not inherit with Ishmael. Kenturah and her children assumed to receive their separate inheritance, as well as Abraham's cocubines.

Christians focus on "the covenant" made with Isaac and not Ishmael not considering that Ishmael needed no covenant because he had already received "the promise"(nation,land) and did not need a promise. He was already blessed by the God of Abraham. Only Isaac needed a promise because he had yet to obtain his land.

"Out of Isaac shall thy seed be called." Jacob then enters the picture in 12 tribes and called Israel. Here the promise was fulfilled in identity of nation in land of Canaan/Cainites. Or Canaanites.