Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JesusFollower · 07-14-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XOVER

What do you mean by this statement, JesusFollower?:

Do you mean something like this?:

If you're walking in a forest and happen to find, say, a watch, you can deduce that the watch was created. That the watch just could not have somehow 'come together' piece-by-piece by sheer chance without the intervention of a builder, a designer, a creator. A creator who designed and crafted the internal gears and parts with exquisite skill and precision so that the second hand moves second-by-second, then moving the minute hand, then the hour hand, so carefully, so accurately, in such way that the watch simply could not have come together by mere happenstance.

And just as we can deduce that the watch found in the forest was created, so we can also deduce that a person, or a tree, or the earth, or the universe also had to have a creator -- these examples being equally complex, form fitting function, like the watch, so that these things also could not just have 'come together,' piece-by-piece, by sheer chance. For example, a person: The eyes of the human so obviously made for seeing, the person having two arms for grasping, with a mind that can reason and understand, and, like the watch, the person so obviously well-functioning, internal organs in such harmony, such as a stomach to digest food, that the person must have been created just as we know the watch was created.

And the creator of these "things" is God -- hence the "evidence" of God being "everywhere" as "revealed" by the "things" he has made?

Is this the crux of what you mean by the quoted statement of yours? I'm thinking this is your basic argument, but it is difficult to tell for sure without additional feedback from you.

Or do you mean something else? And if so, can you flesh out a bit more of what these "things" are that "He made" that you claim "God has revealed Himself" so that we can better understand what "evidence of God" it is that you are talking about?

XOVER...I think you made a good analysis of this thread. I feel that possibly you are one who will confess to SEEING these attributes and that is admirable. I also think some others here that I have spoken too also have, but have suppressed them and will not cross the grain here for fear of retroactive assults on them based on thier previous posts and perceived personality definitions? But possibly you have a plan in place that is otherwise by your question? Time will tell either way.

JesusFollower · 07-14-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

On what basis will JesusGod evaluate someone to determine whether they can enter or not?

Answer:

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 3:36

It's a tough answer Mageth, but you asked the question.

Keith&Co. · 07-14-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

He has fullfilled the Old Testament prophesies concerning the coming Messiah.:

No, not really. The messiah was supposed to be a king, descended of David. Both of Jesus' geneologies list Jeconiah. according to Jeremiah 22:30 "Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
So whether the geneology is mary or joseph's, Jesus is disqualified to be king.

Quote:

He has changed My life completely as I have posted earlier.

Good for you. Really. But can you be sure HE changed your life, or that your belief in him changed it? People have attributed great life changes to various gods, to giving up smoking, to surviving a near death experience. Your belief that Jesus is to be credited may prove your belief, but not the object of your belief.

Quote:

He has hundreds of followers who have had the option to denounce Him at the point of death yet choose not to deny Him.

People willing to die for their beliefs abound, in all religions. After the Christains took over Rome, they threw pagans to the lions for not denouncing their religion. Is their belief any more proven than the christains who were thrown to the lions?

Quote:

He shows me love and acceptace and has paid the ultimate sacrific like no other so-called diety has.

Ultimate sacrifice? What did Jesus give up that he valued and did not get back?
Prometheus has suffered more and longer.

Keith&Co. · 07-14-2006, 06:09 PM

Oh, and most of the times i've seen lists of 300 prophecies that Jesus DOES fulfill, they cheated.
A common one is about breaking the lamb's bones. It's not a prophecy, it's a dietary restriction. Is that one on your list of 300?

Queen of Swords · 07-14-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

XOVER...I think you made a good analysis of this thread. I feel that possibly you are one who will confess to SEEING these attributes and that is admirable.

Psst... XOVER... let JesusFollower think that at least you agree with him. No one else does, except for his imaginary friend god, and it must be awfully lonely to be in such a position.

Quote:

I also think some others here that I have spoken too also have

See what I mean? JesusFollower just wants people to agree with him and be his friends. So when they don't, he tells himself that they do anyway.

Quote:

but have suppressed them and will not cross the grain here for fear of retroactive assults on them based on thier previous posts and perceived personality definitions?

My, my, a budding conspiracy theorist in the making. Tell me, JesusFollower, just what are these mysterious "retroactive assaults" that you have in mind? Drive-by eggings?

Nevertheless, you may rest assured that most of us here are not frightened of such "assaults". Perhaps you are projecting your fear of your god onto us?

EthnAlln · 07-14-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

I'm sorry you feel this way BuckLaser, this is by no means my purpose. One thing about the Christian faith is that it is a "Jesus way or no way" belief I will agree with you. I want to be gentle and to the point if at all possible. Thank you for your response.

Well, of course I don't think there is any salvation to be had, and I don't think those who assembled the Christian Bible were concerned with consistency, so they left in some passages like "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned," (Mark 16:16) alongside that long discourse right out of Jesus' own mouth in Matthew 25:31--46, which says that the necessary and sufficient condition for salvation is living a life of charity and service to one's fellow humans. So, I have no basis for answering your question. The Bible doesn't provide an unambiguous answer, even if I thought the Bible was an authority (which I don't).

Since you've indicated that you do believe this narrow doctrine, may I invite you to answer a question from the "What must I do to be saved?" thread under "General Religious Discussions"? Specifically, let's take a particular case, like the Hindu mathematician Aryabhata I, who lived in the sixth century and never heard of Jesus. Was he (and the other 10 or 15 billion people who, like Aryabhata I, never heard of Jesus) damned? If not, how does Jesus shoe-horn him into paradise? (And please, don't evade by asking how I know Aryabhata I never heard of Jesus; surely everyone will admit that there have been billions of people who never heard of him. If you don't like my example, think of another one.)

EthnAlln · 07-14-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

There isn't a lot to reason about regarding a creator in my opinion. I don't see random acts in nature that just happened to happen without cause. I can't see all this just by chance so therefore I believe in the God of the scriptures.

That is one breathtaking leap of faith. The universe isn't random; therefore Christianity is true (and Islam is false and Hinduism is false, and Judaism is false, and Zoroastrianism is false, and.....) I'm sure I could drive a coach and horses through that therefore.

You know, JF, I rather like you, and what you've been kind enough to tell us about your biography makes me like you even more. But what you are doing here is very dangerous to your faith. While I do my best to propagate the truth as I see it, I'm aware that there are people for whom the truth might be a personal disaster, and I fear you may be one of them. My advice to you, as one human being to another, is to walk away from this board and not read anything we atheists post. Unless you are prepared to live without your faith (and it might in some cases take some preparation, although it didn't for me), it's not good to tempt logic and facts.

XOVER · 07-14-2006, 07:10 PM

JesusFollower, I do appreciate your response to my post appearing above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

I think you made a good analysis of this thread. I feel that possibly you are one who will confess to SEEING these attributes and that is admirable. I also think some others here that I have spoken too also have, but have suppressed them and will not cross the grain here for fear of retroactive assults on them based on thier previous posts and perceived personality definitions? But possibly you have a plan in place that is otherwise by your question?

Wayne Delia · 07-14-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

It was intentional.

It would be much better for you to address the points raised instead of admittedly intentionally missing the point. Very few people, if anyone at all, are taking you seriously.

WMD

Doug Shaver · 07-14-2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

Is Jesus the only way to God?

I doubt it very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFollower

What do you think?

I think that if I am in any obliged to believe that Jesus is the only way to God, it would be logical for me first to become convinced that there is a God.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-14-2006, 06:09 PM	#144
Keith&Co. Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Pittsfield, Mass Posts: 24,500	Oh, and most of the times i've seen lists of 300 prophecies that Jesus DOES fulfill, they cheated. A common one is about breaking the lamb's bones. It's not a prophecy, it's a dietary restriction. Is that one on your list of 300?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.