spin

If you've got no examples, just say so. Otherwise, cough them up and stop wasting time.


spin

judge

I gave you several embedded in Pauls letter.

Added in edit: there are more examples in pauls writings and all throughout the NT and Hebrew Bible.
This verse is another example. It is not about a military victory

spin

Can you see anything about messianism in the above? This is what you said: "But why would one expect Jewish messainism to be correct when their very own prophets indictaed their shortcomings in this regard."

I'm still waiting for you to support the claim. The topic, had you not remembered, is with regard to messianism and Jewish shortcomings in its regard. Last chance.


spin

judge

Yes I can. Just becasue it doesn't mention the word messiah, you imagine it has nought to do with messianism?


It's not the last chance nor the first chance nor the 2nd or third. I'm not chancing that I will change your mind. I'm merely pointing out that your assertion does not explain the evidence.

Here is your claim To which I replied.

1.Jewish messainism grows out of their reading of their own religious texts.

2. Their own religious texts indicate that they were stubborn and blind and would , to some degree at least, miss out on understanding.

3. Despite this fact you would believe that their self -serving and inadequate (in as much as they selectively pick and choose) interpretations would actually know what the prophets meant!!!

You need to explain why you think jewish messainism was so faultless in view of what those very same prophets said about them. It's catch 22 situation for you.

spin

What seems now obvious to me is that you've got no idea about Jewish messianism. Christian antagonist bias doesn't cut it.

Try these for a starter:

John J. Collins, The Sceptre and the Star: The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature, Doubleday, 1995.

Flint & Evans (Eds), Eschatology, Messianism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Eerdmans, 1997.


spin

judge

Yes you have pointed one of those out to me previously. Again I am having no luck at Amazon Also it makes discussion here a little difficult if you want me to go and read a book, that is a particular favourite of your's, rather than address three rather simple points I made.
Just where do you disagree with the three points I made.

Do you for instance disagree with point #1?

1.Jewish messainism grows out of their reading of their own religious texts.

If you agree it makes your case difficult to mount. If you disagree what is the reason you disagree?

added in edit:
Found it.

spin

Just because you are an heir of sorts to a pack of cultural thieves, why do you pretend that you can understand what you have stolen? This cuckoo mentality of yours doesn't make you better than the birds whose nest you have stuck your beak into. You have to cheat and fudge and pervert the Jewish texts in order to force much of the meaning you need from them. You don't seem to have a starting point for the task you claimed to know something about, ie Jewish messianism.

Rethink the hypocrisy of #2 (pointing out the mote in another's eye) and the crass obnoxiousness of #3 (talk about self-serving). Read books, like those above -- I've supplied links to for the books on messianism.

This sort of stuff misses the problem you've put yourself in. Either you understand what the Jews meant with the messiah or you don't -- we both know it's the latter.

(And how many times do I have to write the word "messianism" correctly so that you'll get the idea how to spell what you are trying to talk about?)


spin

judge

The Hebrew Bible is not the property of one group. It is the property of all mankind. You are living in the past. This planet is too small these days for this sort of "us and them" thinking you have. We are all one.
The world is too small and it has become too dangerous for this outmoded thinking.


Jewish messianism has its roots in the Hebrew Bible.

Why not just address this? Once you do all your arguments fall apart, don't they?

:wave:

Of course it is self serving to interpret things in a way that see you and your in group as special.
Compare this with paul who wrote that in christ there is neither jew nor greek slave nor free..

As I mentioned already. This is what religious people do. They selectively read religious texts in ways that are self serving. In an way favourable for them and their "in group".

Why you insist on agreeing with that you still wont say. What is it?

spin

You have to justify the theft.

The Psalms of Solomon are not in the bible. The relevant DSS are not in the bible. Messianism is mainly extrabiblical.

When you know what you're talking about.

If christianity doesn't like the Jewish literature, why steal it?

You can selectively read your own literature, not steal from another culture that your cultural forebearers persecuted.

I'll let you parse that. It makes about as much sense as your post hoc justifications.

I know you can't help your religion, but you should live with the consequences, your heritage. Instead you have the blind audacity to cite Paul quoting out of context god saying: "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." This is the old "we christians have taken over the religion and the place of the Jews because they were naughty and didn't deserve their place." The christian cuckoo climbs into another's nest and pretends it belongs there.


spin

No Robots

And now the Christian cuckoo has to make room for the text critics.