Purna

I am a Zen Buddhist who doesn't believe in Rebirth.
Until recently that was absolutely no problem because I saw three cases:

a) Rebirth exists and meditation awakes one to reality and by doing so frees one from suffering and rebirth.

b) Rebirth does not exist and meditation awakes one to reality and by doing so frees one from suffering.

But recently I was a watching a documentary about some Tibetan Yogis doing intensive retreats of meditation.
These very well known and respected lamas claimed to have remembered previous lives.
Some of this yogis had problems expressing themselves coherently because they said that they gone beyond "samsaric thinking".
So a new variant was added to my possibilities of meditation:

c) Rebirth does not exist and meditation is a dangerous practice which brings mental disease and illusions (like remembering "past lives") and by doing so decreases suffering.

What's you opinion about this?

Aradia

d) The question of rebirth is of no consequence, and meditation is neither good nor bad, but is what the individual makes of it.

David B

I'm an ex transcendental meditor.

While meditating I had some quite powerful experiences, which fit in well with what I read and hear of more orthodox Hindu and Buddhist experiences.

I also got sucked into believing metaphysics which I now know to be out of touch with reality.

I've given it up.

I can really only speak for my own experiences, but I tend to think that most forms of meditation have at least something in common with TM. Particularly those which demand some sort of intitiatin, and trust in a teacher.

I think meditation puts one into a disassociated state in which one experiences what it is suggested one will experience, whether the suggestion comes from a teacher or ones own reading and/or metaphysical thought.

I largely agree with the web site following, whose writer I've had some email correspondence with.

http://www.suggestibility.org/index.htm

David B

Yeshi

If you have a good teacher, and meditate as you say, you should already have the answers.

If you come to a DISASSOCIATED state, then you are practicing a bad thing.
If you cultivate a disjunct conditioned state of mind without being aware whats going on, that can have consequences.

That is why it cannot be stressed more that one should follow a traditional path by a good teacher. If you follow mumbo jumbo New Age cults, that can definitely be devastating.

I ASSURE you that the buddhist path is of attaining to mindfulness and PRESENCE in which no disociation, but connectedness with ultimate true nature is what is strived and attained to.

aupmanyav

Rebirth is there, no doubt about it, but what kind? The atoms which form my body may have formed 14 billion years ago in a big bang. They were parts of trillions of things till now, galaxies, comets, animals, flowers, stones. They have congregated in me (even in me there is constant coming and going of atoms). Only that at present I have this identity. After I die, the atoms will again play the same game and be part of various things for a long period, I do not know how long, another 14 billion years perhaps. Though my identity will cease with my death. If it is not rebirth, then what is?

The respected lamas were not telling you the whole truth, may be they had reasons. In simple language, bereft of all adornments, meditation is not thinking, and later, thinking. The wise and knowledgeable benefit by it, the fools or the misled get delusions (start jumping). There is no neccessity of teachers or initiation. Even when you go into metaphysics, do not forget what your physics or chemistry teachers told you. Are 'good teachers' without their own preconceived notions easy to find? If somebody would want the procedure that I followed, I would be glad to explain in this topic.

David B

I don't doubt your sincerity, but would make the point that when I was living my years of ashram life, and sometimes getting very powerful, and blissful, experiences from my practices, I would (and did), with all sincerity, have assured people the same about my path of the time.

One person's 'ultimate true nature' is anothers Mumbo Jumbo.

Discrimination is the key - and mine has led me to reject any philosophy/practice/whatever that has metaphysics behind it that depend on the supernatural. And any teaching which depends on any sort of ritual initiation that is consistent with being put into a suggestible state.

I think a good look through the link I provided is a really good idea.

David B

Purna

They where quite clear when they talked about rebirth in hell realms, rebirth as ghosts and as animals.
The way they spoke about their previous lives and about supernatural powers didn't leave room for any alternative interpretation.
One of them is Ven. Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche who is a VERY advanced and respected practitioner, one of the greatest living lamas.

aupmanyav

Now, what can I say if you would like to believe in that?

David B: May be the 'ultimate true nature of everything' is not mumbo-jumbo.

lenrek

I remember a teacher once told us a story.

Powerful and blissful experiences are not uncommon in meditation. In fact, for some, such experiences are so common to be experienced, they no longer bother with these at all. These are just mental states, they are conditioned phenomena, they are subject to nature of impermanent - they are subject to decay. They are unsatisfactory, clinging to these will only result in suffering.

By the knowing the very nature of the mind, the yogi (those who meditate), stand firm, not overwhelmed, remain in calm and serenity. Observe these nature of the mind with mindfulness, thus able to see their true nature of impermanent, non-self and unsatisfactory.

Just a comment based on what you wrote, and explaining what we, Buddhists, suppose to do, whenever encounter such powerful and blissful meditative experiences.

David B

'ultimate true nature of everything' is ''ultimate true nature of everything'.

One person's understanding and/or experience of that is another man's mumbo Jumbo

David B