Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

More from Runia:

Quote:

. In the historical-apologetic works we encounter a different situation. As the name implies, Philo's apologetic concern is now more directly focussed on the concrete historical situation of the Jewish people in the past and in his own time. The rhetorical mode of presentation causes more serious interpretative difficulties here, for we are confronted with 'historical accounts' quite different to what we are used to.

The best known example is Philo's fascinating depiction of the Therapeutae (in the De vita contemplativa). There is of course no direct exegesis in these writings. But the apologist at work is the same man who regards the wisdom of Moses as his nation's greatest drawcard. Every effort should be made to relate the contents of these works to exegetical themes elaborated in the main body of Philo's writings.

So who are you going to believe?

In regard to the OP it's not about belief its about EVIDENCE.

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Pete - the idea that VC was a later forgery is comparable to the theory of phlogiston. It's dead.

I am going to suspend judgement until the investigation of the EVIDENCE is complete.

What about what I have termed the elephant in the room?

This is the certain historical existence of the pagan therapeutae of Asclepius (and others).

To Christians like Eusebius and his continuators today, the therapeutae of Asclepius were a large part of one of, if not the largest of the pagan church communities / collegia in antiquity, for the entire "Early Christian" saga from 000-324 CE.

I have provided contemporary source material for discussion.

(1) Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk) - Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren

(2) Asclepius: The God of Medicine - Gerald D. Hart

PLEASE ADDRESS: The ubiquitous pagan therapeutae of Asclepius

When Constantine ordered the army to utterly destroy the largest of the Asclepian temples,
Eusebius MUST HAVE KNOWN that the therapeutae of Asclepius thought of themselves as
“a great church” associated with life (imperishability) and self-described as “a living school”.

But he does not mention the elephant in the room - these pagan therapeutae of Asclepius, the Old Healing god.

INSTEAD he finds an account by Philo somewhere in the archives which describes a Jewish sect of therapeutae.
INSTEAD he fabricates an account that Philo met Peter in Rome and that Philo's therapeutae were "Our Guys".

These Eusebian Philonic Jewish therapeutae lived in the same epoch that Apollonius of Tyana served as a therapeutae of Asclepius.

It seems to me that the Eusebian propaganda machine may have attempted to destroy the memory of the ubiquitous pagan therapeutae.

(It was after all a great part of the Old Pagan Church)

NOTE that the Eusebian propaganda machine may have been in operation for centuries after "Eusebius" went to the underworld.

Clivedurdle · 02-11-2013, 01:50 AM

Does Philo in all his works use numerological examples like the right angled triangle and 50?

If not, are we not looking at different authors with different interests?

spin · 02-11-2013, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

When Constantine ordered the army to utterly destroy the largest of the Asclepian temples,
Eusebius MUST HAVE KNOWN that the therapeutae of Asclepius thought of themselves as
“a great church” associated with life (imperishability) and self-described as “a living school”.

You haven't got a clue what Eusebius must have known. You just pulled that from some damned orifice. Assertions are still all you have. Vain, empty nonsense. You've come a long way.

It's dead, Jim.

andrewcriddle · 02-11-2013, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

So you think he got his weenie whacked and became a Jewish proselyte? Where does he tell you that?

no one says he was circumcised. no says he desired to become Jewish. The general idea in antiquity was that there was some relationship between Moses and Plato. Nietzsche attributed it to a common origin in Egypt (= Plato's philosophy). It might have been Pythagoreanism. Who knows. The exact nature of Plato's appropriation from Judaism is never specifically fleshed out as far as I know. They just put an argument or a legend to justify their use of Plato and Pythagoreanism.

One ancient way of connecting Moses and Plato was to identify Moses with Musaeus

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

When Constantine ordered the army to utterly destroy the largest of the Asclepian temples,
Eusebius MUST HAVE KNOWN that the therapeutae of Asclepius thought of themselves as
“a great church” associated with life (imperishability) and self-described as “a living school”.

You haven't got a clue what Eusebius must have known.

FFS Eusebius must have known about some of the pagan archaeology.

(1) Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk) - Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren

(2) Asclepius: The God of Medicine - Gerald D. Hart

We know that Eusebius witnessed the destruction of major pagan temples (with their therapeutae).

Did Eusebius live inside a bubble unconnected with archaeology and politics?

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

So you think he got his weenie whacked and became a Jewish proselyte? Where does he tell you that?

no one says he was circumcised. no says he desired to become Jewish. The general idea in antiquity was that there was some relationship between Moses and Plato. Nietzsche attributed it to a common origin in Egypt (= Plato's philosophy). It might have been Pythagoreanism. Who knows. The exact nature of Plato's appropriation from Judaism is never specifically fleshed out as far as I know. They just put an argument or a legend to justify their use of Plato and Pythagoreanism.

One ancient way of connecting Moses and Plato was to identify Moses with Musaeus

That's very interesting Andrew thank you.

Quote:

Musaeus of Athens (Mousaios) was a legendary polymath, philosopher, historian, prophet, seer, priest, poet, and musician, said to have been the founder of priestly poetry in Attica. In 450 B.C., the playwright Euripides in his play Rhesus describes him thus, "Musaeus, too, thy holy citizen, of all men most advanced in lore."[1]

////

For this and other reasons, Artapanus of Alexandria, Alexander Polyhistor, Numenius of Apamea, and Eusebius identify Musaeus with Moses the Jewish lawbringer.[6]

Numenius

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Numenius called Plato the "Atticizing Moses,"[8] i.e., that Plato was the Hellenic Moses.[9][10]

However the factuality of this statement is disputed since the quote comes from the Church Fathers
who had motive to connect Greek and Biblical wisdom; this would justify the superiority of Christianity
over Hellenism because Moses predates Plato - thus the original source of this wisdom is the root of
Christianity and not Hellenistic culture.[11]

Alexander Polyhistor

Quote:

The text of the fragments preserved is in very unsatisfactory shape, owing to insufficient collation of the manuscripts. How much of his originals Alexander himself omitted is difficult to say, in view of the corrupt state of the text of Eusebius, where most of his fragments are to be found. Abydenus—the Christian editor of Alexander’s works—evidently had a different text before him from that which Eusebius possessed.

Text of the fragments Περὶ Ἰουδαίων is to be found in Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica, ix. 17; Clemens Alexandrinus, Stromata i. 21, 130, and Müller, Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum, iii. 211–230; prose extracts, from a new collation of the manuscripts, in Freudenthal, “Alexander Polyhistor,” pp. 219–236

Artapanus of Alexandria

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Artapanus of Alexandria (Gk. Ἀρτάπανος ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς) was a historian, of Jewish origin, who is believed to have lived in Alexandria, during the later half of the 3rd or 2nd century BCE.

///

, Alexander Polyhistor’s citation of Artapanus in the middle of the 1st century BCE makes it likely that Artapanus wrote no later than the end of the 2nd century BCE. Polyhistor’s writings have not survived to the present.

///

According to Artapanus, Abraham taught an Egyptian pharaoh the science of astrology, while Moses bestowed many “useful benefits on mankind” by inventing boats, Egyptian weapons, and philosophy. (Eusebius, PrEv 9.27.4) He also recounts that the Greeks called Moses Musaeus and that he taught Orpheus, who was widely considered to be the father of Greek culture.

spin · 02-11-2013, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

When Constantine ordered the army to utterly destroy the largest of the Asclepian temples,
Eusebius MUST HAVE KNOWN that the therapeutae of Asclepius thought of themselves as
“a great church” associated with life (imperishability) and self-described as “a living school”.

You haven't got a clue what Eusebius must have known.

FFS Eusebius must have known about some of the pagan archaeology.

And perhaps you know what he knew.

(There was of course some reason why you put these links in your post, but what it was seems not to have been made at all clear. Perhaps there is something in them on specific pages you can cite. Perhaps not.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

(1) Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk) - Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren

(2) Asclepius: The God of Medicine - Gerald D. Hart

We know that Eusebius witnessed the destruction of major pagan temples (with their therapeutae).

Did Eusebius live inside a bubble unconnected with archaeology and politics?

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It has already been mentioned that the group might have been a product of Philo's imagination.

But they were the product of a Jewish imagination.

Can you try to do some of your own research instead of just asking questions?

So the Therapeutae might have been an Imaginary Group and the product of Jewish imagination so they qualify to be Jewish??

What utter absurdity!!!

spin · 02-11-2013, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It has already been mentioned that the group might have been a product of Philo's imagination.

As Philo was writing in Alexandria and he relates the therapeutae to Lake Mareotis, it is highly unlikely that he was making the stuff up. Mareotis is rather close to Alexandria, so an Alexandrian reader could be acquainted with the area and know what was being talked about. Such a closeness does not suggest fantasy. You talk about fictitious people in some remote place that people are unlikely to be acquainted with. He could easily be playing hard and fast with the facts though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But they were the product of a Jewish imagination.

In fact they are plainly Jewish.

1. The therapeutae are neither Greeks (excluded #14, #42) nor Egyptians (excluded #7-8) nor Italians nor barbarians (#48).

2. They live in Egypt, but are not from there (#22).

3. They study "the laws and sacred oracles of god enunciated by the holy prophets" (#25). This is from Philo's perspective.

4. They hold the seventh day for the care of the soul and "a complete rest from their continual labours" (#36).

5. They live according to the precepts of Moses (#63, #64).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Can you try to do some of your own research instead of just asking questions?

Research requires a methodology.

Sheshbazzar · 02-11-2013, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Philo'? VC

(63) I pass over in silence the different fabulous fictions, and the stories of persons with two bodies, who having originally been stuck to one another by amatory influences, are subsequently separated like portions which have been brought together and are disjoined again, the harmony having been dissolved by which they were held together; for all these things are very attractive, being able by novelty of their imagination to allure the ears, but they are despised by the disciples of Moses, who in the abundance of their wisdom have learnt from their earliest infancy to love truth, and also continue to the end of their lives impossible to be deceived

A bit off topic, but it seems Philo here is writing about 'conjoined twins' and claiming their existence 'fabulous fictions', and that 'the disciples of Moses, .....have learnt from their earliest infancy to love truth, and also continue to the end of their lives impossible to be deceived'.

Love 'truth' yet are unaware that conjoined twins in truth of fact do exist?

And believed that all accounts of this condition were only 'fabulous fictions' and deceptions?

Guess outside of his imaginary theological claims, he didn't much have a clue as to how the world, or his 'God' really worked.

I admit that I have not yet been able to read all of what is attributed to Philo, but can't help but wonder if the rest is this naive? Or more interesting, if other of Philo's writings might contain statements or information that would expose this naive text as not having originated with Philo.

I say this because by all accounts Philo was well educated and traveled, and "conjoined twins have been depicted in sculpture and art dating back from before the time of Christ" And have an incidence of about 'approximately one in 50,000 to 100,000 live births,' (source; The American Pedriatric Surgical Associaton; Conjoined Twins)
it seems to me very unlikely that the real Philo having such a broad range of knowledge and experience would have made such an uneducated and uninformed statement.

Just something for all of us with an interest in Philo to file away in the back of our minds, where it might come in handy someday while reading other of Philo's treatises.

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02-11-2013, 01:50 AM	#862
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Does Philo in all his works use numerological examples like the right angled triangle and 50? If not, are we not looking at different authors with different interests?

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