Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-07-2012, 11:39 AM

Duvduv - we have allowed this thread to exist so aa5874 can endlessly repeat his theories without cluttering up other threads. Do you want your own thread where you can endlessly question the discrepancy between Acts and Galatians?

Duvduv · 11-07-2012, 12:16 PM

No, I was simply replying to a posting on the basis of my other posting in which I made a comment in passing. That's all. Any other digs available in your arsenal, Toto? Surely you can come up with a few more. Maybe from among those that you (don't) apply to various posters who post unsubstantive chat comments endlessly throughout various threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Duvduv - we have allowed this thread to exist so aa5874 can endlessly repeat his theories without cluttering up other threads. Do you want your own thread where you can endlessly question the discrepancy between Acts and Galatians?

aa5874 · 11-07-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Duvduv - we have allowed this thread to exist so aa5874 can endlessly repeat his theories without cluttering up other threads. Do you want your own thread where you can endlessly question the discrepancy between Acts and Galatians?

Please, do not attempt to derail my thread. My argument is extremely solid and cannot be contradicted.

I am discussing, arguing and showing that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century based on recovered dated manuscripts and compatible sources.

I will refer to many, many pieces of evidence and sources of antiquity.

Now, Examine Minucius Felix "Octavius".

In the writing, Octavius converts Caecilius to a Christian.

However, not even a single phrase from the Pauline writings is mentioned.

Neither Octavius nor Caecilius ever mentioned Paul, the Pauline Gospel, nor the Pauline letters.

It is clear that a Jesus story was known in the time of Octavius and Caecilius but there was NOTHING known about the Pauline letters.

Minucius Felix "Octavius"

Quote:

.. For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God.

It appears that Octavius did NOT attend a Pauline Church and did NOT read any Pauline letters when Paul claimed if Jesus was NOT resurrected there would be NO Salvation.

In Minucius Felix "Octavius" the Pauline Gospel was unknown.

"Octavius" of Minucius Felix is compatible with the actual recovered dated manuscripts--the Pauline letters were unknown and had no influence on 2nd century Jesus cults.

Stories about Jesus predate the Pauline letters. After all Paul claimed he Persecuted the Faith and attempted to destroy or waste the Church of God.

There is NO recovered or credible evidence of any Christian Church or persecution of a Jesus cult in the 1st century before c 70 CE and in the 1st century.

Duvduv · 11-07-2012, 01:57 PM

AA, please at least remember that this was not the issue I raised in my comments about Acts and Galatians.

aa5874 · 11-07-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

AA, please at least remember that this was not the issue I raised in my comments about Acts and Galatians.

Please, do not attempt to derail my thread.

Right now, my argument is that the Jesus story, the Pauline writings and Jesus cult originated in the 2nd-3rd century based on the recovered dated evidence.

My argument is that Acts of the Apostles was composed Before the Pauline writings since the author of Acts did NOT mention the Pauline Gospel of the Revealed Resurrected Jesus and did NOT acknowledge the Pauline letters up to the time of Festus procurator of Judea c 59-62 CE.

Even Origen admitted that Celsus wrote Nothing about Paul.

Examine "Against Celsus" 1

Quote:

And I do not know how Celsus should have forgotten or not have thought of saying something about Paul, the founder, after Jesus, of the Churches that are in Christ.

Duvduv · 11-08-2012, 05:36 AM

I wasn't trying to derail it, I was simply replying to one of your comments.
In any event, you reiterate your 2nd-3rd centuries as the source of the Jesus cult when you had already confirmed for yourself that Justin lived in the mid-2nd century, meaning that the cult existed BEFORE THAT, thereby excluding any time around the 3rd century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

AA, please at least remember that this was not the issue I raised in my comments about Acts and Galatians.

Please, do not attempt to derail my thread.

Right now, my argument is that the Jesus story, the Pauline writings and Jesus cult originated in the 2nd-3rd century based on the recovered dated evidence.

My argument is that Acts of the Apostles was composed Before the Pauline writings since the author of Acts did NOT mention the Pauline Gospel of the Revealed Resurrected Jesus and did NOT acknowledge the Pauline letters up to the time of Festus procurator of Judea c 59-62 CE.

Even Origen admitted that Celsus wrote Nothing about Paul.

Examine "Against Celsus" 1

Quote:

And I do not know how Celsus should have forgotten or not have thought of saying something about Paul, the founder, after Jesus, of the Churches that are in Christ.

aa5874 · 11-08-2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I wasn't trying to derail it, I was simply replying to one of your comments.
In any event, you reiterate your 2nd-3rd centuries as the source of the Jesus cult when you had already confirmed for yourself that Justin lived in the mid-2nd century, meaning that the cult existed BEFORE THAT, thereby excluding any time around the 3rd century..

The RAW data supports my argument that the Jesus story, the Pauline writings and Jesus cult originated in the 2nd-3rd century.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stament_papyri

Please supply the RAW data for your argument that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 4th-5th century.

You have NO raw data except pure imagination and spectacular speculations..

aa5874 · 11-08-2012, 09:41 PM

The short gMark is one of the most significant Jesus stories in the Canon. The earliest Jesus character MUST first be understood.

The Markan Jesus was NOT a Sacrifice.

The Markan Jesus was NOT killed for Remission of Sins.

The Markan Jesus was NOT called Christ by the Jews.

The Markan Jesus did NOT start any new religion under the name of Christ.

The Markan Jesus did NOT want the Jews to understand him.

The Markan Jesus did NOT want the Jews to be converted.

The Markan Jesus came to fulfill so-called Prophecies in Hebrew Scripture.

The Markan Jesus is essentially the Mythological character found in the book of Daniel--one LIKE the Son of Man.

Examine the book of Daniel.

Daniel 7:13 KJV

Quote:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Now, examine gMark

Mark 14:62 KJV

Quote:

And Jesus said , I am : and ye shall see the Son of man...... coming in the clouds of heaven...

In gMark, the Jesus character took Peter, James and John up in a mountain and TRANSFIGURED.

The Markan Jesus REVEALED his IDENTITY ONLY to the three disciples.

Mark 9

Quote:

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining , exceeding white as snow...

Daniel 7:9 KJV

Quote:

I beheld till the thrones were cast down , and the Ancient of days did sit , whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

gMark's Jesus is the Mythological entity of the book of Daniel--One Like the Son of man whose garment was White as Snow and would come in the clouds.

aa5874 · 11-09-2012, 07:33 AM

The Jesus character of the short gMark is a product of so-called prophecies in Hebrew Scripture.

The Jesus character called the Son of Man is a product of assumed prophecies in the book of Daniel AFTER the Temple and Jerusalem was made desolate.

The Jesus story is quite easy to unravel.

After the calamities of the Jews c 70 CE it was claimed that the Jews Delivered up the Son of their God to be Killed.

In the short gMark, Jesus carried out miracles that were NOT humanly possibly.

The very disciples SAW Jesus Walk on water--a thing No human being can do.

The very disciples SAW Jesus transfigure--No Flesh can instantly change their appearance.

The very Jews WITNESSED Jesus feeding thousands on TWO occasions in gMark 6 & 8.

The very Jews Witnessed Jesus as he raised the dead in Mark 5.

The very Jews Witnessed Jesus as he Instantly healed the lame, deaf, dumb and blind in Mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & 10.

The author of gMark depicts Jesus with non-human capabilities in chapter after chapter and Jesus is acknowledge as the Son of a God.

The Jewish Temple Fell and Jerusalem was made desolate because the Jews Delivered up the Son of God to be Killed.

However, there are TWO advents of the Son of Man based on Hebrew Scripture. Examine the words of Justin.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

..... O Trypho," said I, "some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold.

It is clear that the Jesus character, the Son of man, is a product of the book of Daniel. The Son of Man came in the clouds and was Given an everlasting Kingdom in the vision of Daniel.

Now, in gMark, the Son of Man preaches the Good News of the coming of the Kingdom of God.

Mark 1

Quote:

.15 Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,15And saying , The time is fulfilled , and the kingdom of God is at hand..

In the book of Daniel the one Like the Son of Man was Given an Everlasting Kingdom.

Daniel 7

Quote:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him nearbefore him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away , and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed

aa5874 · 11-12-2012, 06:01 PM

The earliest Canonised gMark is NOT about Salvation by Sacrifice of the Jesus character.
The Markan Jesus did NOT teach his disciples that he would be Sacrificed for Remission of Sins and did NOT teach that he would abolish the Laws of the Jews.

Chapter 10 of the short gMark demonstrates that the gMark story is NOT about Salvation by Sacrifice.

The Markan Jesus did NOT die for Remission of Sins.

The Markan Jesus wanted to PROVE that he could CONQUER death.

The Markan Jesus wanted to PROVE he was NOT human.

1. Mark 10

Quote:

17 And as he went forth into the road, one ran to him, and kneeling to him asked him: Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 But Jesus said to him.........Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony. Thou shalt not defraud, Honor thy father and thy mother....

The Markan Jesus is clear--- FOLLOW THE LAW IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.

TO GET ETERNAL LIFE---FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENTS.

Now, let us continue.

2.Mark 10

Quote:

20 And he said to him: Teacher, all these have I kept from my youth.

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him: One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come follow me.

22 But becoming sad at that saying he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

The crucifixion and death of the Markan Jesus was NOT to obtain Salvation or Eternal Life and Remission of Sins.

The Markan Jesus DEFIED Death after three days which NO human being can do.

The crucifixion, death and Resurrection of the Markan Jesus PROVES that the Jesus character was NOT human but truly the Son of a God.

The Markan Jesus story is Mythology from Baptism to Resurrection

The Markan story is a 2nd century or later Myth Fable.

The Jews killed the Son of their Benefactor but he Conquered death after three days.

The Markan Jesus was "Truly" the Son of a Jewish Mythological God.

Mark 9

Quote:

31 For he taught his disciples....... when he has been killed he will rise after three days.

Mark 16

Quote:

6 But he says to them: Be not amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene who was crucified, he has risen, he is not here..

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11-07-2012, 11:39 AM	#651
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Duvduv - we have allowed this thread to exist so aa5874 can endlessly repeat his theories without cluttering up other threads. Do you want your own thread where you can endlessly question the discrepancy between Acts and Galatians?

11-07-2012, 01:57 PM	#654
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	AA, please at least remember that this was not the issue I raised in my comments about Acts and Galatians.

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