maryhelena

OK, Sheshbazzer - perhaps I’ll help Adam out....

Once one takes away all the magic stuff from the gospel story and tries to create a Jesus figure out of what is left over, one will have to face the rather disconcerting reality of history. And it’s history that demonstrates not one flesh and blood figure that could possibly reflect some of these left over, non-magic, elements of the gospel JC - but TWO such historical figures, ie the gospel JC figure is a composite figure not a flesh and blood figure. Two historical figures living in different time frames. Below is a chart using history and elements of the gospel JC story. Yes, one can debate what relevance the gospel writers found in these two historical figures - and perhaps that is where progress in searching for early Christian origins can be found. History and it's interpretation, it's retelling as 'salvation history', or symbolic or philosophical ideas. A gospel pseudo-history taking it's cue from history. Or as much history as one can find within the writing of Josephus.......

History via Josephus	Slavonic Josephus	John	Mark	Matthew	Luke
40 b.c. Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews. The Man of War.		JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.	JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.	THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.	THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Bites ear of his uncle Hyrcanus. Thus denying him the High Priest office.		One of the high priest’s servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off.	cutting off his ear.	cutting off his ear.	cutting off his right ear.
3 year rule		3 Passover visits to Jerusalem.
A great deal of money given to Marc Antony by Herod the Great to have Antigonus killed.	The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose.	Judas: He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.	"Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money.	30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.	"And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. They were delighted and agreed to give him money.
37 b.c. Cassius Dio: scourged on a stake/cross and slain; Josephus: beheaded by Marc Antony.	Crucified under Pilate: 19 -36 c.e.	Crucified under Pilate: 19 -36 c.e.	Crucified under Pilate: 19 -36 c.e.	Jesus flogged, and crucified, under Pilate: 19 -36 c.e	Crucified under Pilate: 19 -36 c.e.
Antigonus possibly born during later part of rule of his grandfather Alexander Jannaeus 107 – 76 b.c.		JC not yet 50 years old.
4 b.c. -34 c.e. Philip the Tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis and of the nation of the Bataneans. The Man of Peace	But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. But that one scorned it.				Powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. But we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.
He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him.	His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. Now he opposed himself in much to the Law and did not observe the Sabbath according to ancestral custom. Yet, on the other hand, he did nothing reprehensible nor any crime; but by word solely he effected everything.	Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.	But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.	But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.	If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.
He used to make his progress with a few chosen friends, his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress, and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint. He there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly.	And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. And he went to his accustomed place and wrought his accustomed works. And as again more folk gathered themselves together round him, then did he win glory through his works more than all. And there gathered themselves to him of servants (Knechten) a hundred and fifty, but of the folk a multitude.	After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve?	They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him.	Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.	When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles.
Rebuilt the city of Casearea Phillipi.			Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, Who do people say I am?”They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.	When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
And the village of Bethsaida.		Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida.
He died at Julias; (Bethsaida Julias) and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp.			Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.	As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away	Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid
Married to Salome	Married to Herodias		Married to Herodias	Married to Herodias
Died in the 20th year of Tiberius in 34 c.e., after 37 year rule. Dating via Josephus.	Philip died before evening and his dominion was given to Agrippa.

For additional thoughts on Philip the Tetrarch - an old thread:


http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=289319

Is Agrippa II the son of Philip the Tetrarch ?

ApostateAbe

The Gospel of Abe

aa5874

The Miracle-Free Myth Jesus, ApostateAbe's Jesus, was derived from Unreliable Historical sources, guesswork and Imagination.

Sheshbazzar

Interesting Abe, but not what I am expecting from Adam. His argument from the day of his arrival here is that certain sections of the Gospel texts were written by certain of the apostles themselves, along with Nicodemus, and they were the 'eyewitness' sources upon whose testimony the Gospels were first composed
Adam professes that he can identify these specific verses as penned in the Gospels, and also exactly identify which of the apostles (or Nicodemus) was the writer of each of these verses or sections of text.

He has proven very facile at providing long lists of verse numbers which he claims to back up his contentions, and claims that there is a credible historical story that can be recovered from these actual verses, without accepting or including any of the Gospel stories supernatural or miracle elements, this is what he has chosen to designate as being his "Gospel According to the Atheists".

This Gospel that Adam is professing to exist or to be able to recover would be quite different than that 'free form' account given in 'The Gospel of Abe', because the very argument being made by Adam in his threads is that these particular verses and portions of text are the accurate eyewitness accounts penned by the apostles (and Nicodemus) that need to be accepted as historical accounts even by atheists and non-believers.
His composition therefore would need to incorporate these exact verses and sections more or less word for word as his alleged eyewitnesses reported them.

The challenge for Adam is to produce a coherent and readable Gospel narrative employing only those elements that can be found within the existing texts- free of any references to Josephus or elements drawn from any latter church writings.

He alleges there is a "Gospel which is According to the Atheists" and I am asking him nothing more than to produce such a Gospel.

Adam

Your first reading assignment was in #91,the earliest Passion Narrative. Not to overburden you each day, here's a reading as listed in my Post #38 in Gospel Eyewitnesses, written by Nicodemus while Jesus was still alive:
The raw text from Nicodemus, my modification of Teeple’s G, runs as follows:

John 3 (in the main); 4:20-24; most of 5:17-47; 6:26-51, 58-65; most of 7:5-52; 8:12-57; most of 9 & 10, but not 9:1-2, 6-7, 13-17, 24-28; 11:1, 9-10, 16; 12:23-50; 13:16, 20; Ch. 14-17.
(after correcting some typos).
It's not necessarily completely free of miracles, but enough so for our purposes here.

aa5874

People here do not trust the Bible. They are Unreliable sources and it is rather worse when you make claims and cannot provide a single non-apologetic source for Nicodemus.

Not even Church writers or apologetic sources of antiquity ever claimed Nicodemus wrote anything.

You don't know how the NT Canon came to be written and who wrote them.

Nicodemus WROTE Nothing. You INVENTED Nicodemus as a writer.

Sheshbazzar

I don't need another list of verse numbers.
And "(in the main)__ 'most of',__ 'most of',__ 'most of", just don't cut it,
What are you leaving out??? And how in the hell do you expect us to know?

If your tale is an eyewitness report you should be able to write it out in an easily readable format.
Arrange it in any manner you chose, leave out whatever you think needs left out, just make it make sense.

Why not simply provide us with the first dozen verses of this alleged 'eyewitness' account?
Shouldn't take up half of the space of one of your longer posts here.

Is your reticence to do so, because you cannot?
Have you been trying it, and finding out for yourself that it comes out deficient?

Inquiring minds want to know, What is your hold up?





.

Adam

Why should I pretend to know more than I know? The stylistic markers within the Johannine Discourses are not so clear as those demarkating them from the other sources and redactions within gJohn. I don't accept the Discourses as all of one piece, but Teeple's critique assigns too much to an Editor, and I settle for something in-between. The boundaries do not affect how much supernaturalism is or isn't in the earliest strata (except the whole concept underlying John 6 ). What is clear is that a great part of the Discourses were gathered as evidence against Jesus and thus had to be while he was not yet sentenced. Of course that makes problematic how much we can trust what Jesus is quoted as saying. But it's eyewitness testimony, no matter how slanted.

maryhelena

Adam, your problem is how to jump from 'eyewitness testimony' to the gospel JC. In other words - what, historically, was being eye-witnessed. To assume that it was the gospel JC, in whatever configuration of gospel material one so chooses - is a jump that you cannot make. The divide is between history and pseudo-history. One cannot jump between them, there is no corresponding equation, i.e. in the gospel story, so, likewise, in history. Reflection is not reality, it's only a dark shadow wherein misconceptions can thrive.

Steve Weiss

Of course it is fallacious to refer to "the" Bible as there are many versions and translations. The official stamp of approval was given by Roman Emperors, not by scholars or historians, and popularity dictated books that were included or excluded. In fact, the OT and NT in any of their manifestations are nothing more than Abrahamic comic books. Mad Magazine has more credibility.