Amaleq13

Could you specify the verse you have in mind?

Assuming Jesus did make such a claim, why shouldn't this make us question his sanity given that he appears to have been praying to himself so frequently?

Furyus George

John 8:58
John 14:6-9;
John 18:36-38
Luke 22:70
Luke 7:41
Mark 14:62
Matthew 28:18
Mathew 26:64

Furyus George, why should it?

Kilgore Trout

Here's an example of how he is deceiving. Say you have three sentences as follows:

1... All people love movies.
2... French people love Jerry Lewis.
3... Germans love David Hasselhoff.

If you combine together in the same way paul did you will have: "All people love movies. They love Jerry Lewis. They love David Hasselhoff." Now you are making it seem like ALL people love Jerry Lewis and David Hasselhoff. You are changing the meaning of the original sentences.

Paul did the same thing. He took sentences like "evil people are vile" and "my enemies are liars" then he put them in a list whereby the only specific object was "all people." So now he has this: "All people have turned from god. They are vile. They are liars." Since the only object in this sentence is "All People," he is now saying "All people have turned from god. All people are vile. All people are liars."

I Know he is making a point! He is saying ALL people are scum, and he is using deceptive tactics by misquoting the OT. And I know it's a letter. Christians are the ones who make the unproven assertion that it's the word of god. Where's your evidence for that one?

Matthew 27:52-53
Where is the evidence of this assertion? It's not in any other part of the bible, or any historical texts. It says that many people were raised to life and appeared to many people. This event is a lot more amazing than jesus rising from the dead. There would have been millions of dead Jews by then, so to use your reasoning 1000 of them rising would not be "many." Jerusalem would have looked like "Dawn of the Dead." Since many people saw them, that would have meant that thousands of people would have witnessed this event where long dead people were walking around. Yet no one bothers to mention this great event except "matthew." So you need evidence of christians acting like Jews, yet you don't need further evidence of dead people walking around. There is "evidence" that Roman emperors were gods and performed miracles, but of course you think that's meaningless too. Only your god can do miracles.

For one thing this is another assertion that you are not backing up. It also just proves my point that you are using a circular argument when you talk about jesus fullfilling prophecies. He is god because he fullfilled them and the reason he fullfilled them is because he is god. Of course you're allowed to believe whatever you want, just don't tell us about your prophecies if you aren't going to back them up. It's meaningless telling me that jesus fullfilled some "prophecy" about dying for our sins, when I have no evidence that died "for our sins."

Ahhh... The classic "Its been around 2000 years so it must be true" fallacy! Islam has been around for 1400 years saying jesus was just a prophet not a god, so that must be true. The Jews have known for 2000 years that jesus is a Deut 13 false prophet. You make it sound like I just made this up now or something. By claiming "2 billion people can't be wrong" you're saying that everybody else is wrong.


As I highlighted, it says "gods you have not known." The Jews did not not know jesus as god when the Torah was written, so he is a god they did not know. The jews did not know god as a trinity, they knew him as one god and that's it. By changing the way god is described you are making him into a new god. For example let's say a prophet claims to be sent by the god of the hebrews,the same god that led them out of Egypt. He announces that they are to think of him as a giant frog in the sky. He is a false prophet under Deut 13 because he is changing god's character. That is not what god is, so its a different god. The trinity is exactly like that. Another example that you should understand: If a prophet showed up today claiming to be sent by the christian god, performed miracles and announced that god was not a trinity, but had six parts instead of three, christians would recognize that he is a Deut 13 false prophet because he is changing the character of god.

Another part that fits jesus is that you are to keep the lord's commands. Jesus changed Torah laws, especially in matthew 5 and mark 7:14-19 where he has the audacity to state that all food are clean and he can't imagine why anyone would think otherwise. If a prophet came around today and said he was from the christian god, then said you are allowed to murder people, every christian would know he was a Deut 13 false prophet, yet when jesus changes laws that god claimed were very important in the Torah and christians don't care.

The last one is similar, "he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow." Christians clearly live differntly that what the Torah says to do, so it is obvious that jesus turned them away from the way the lord commmanded them to follow.

Spare me the garbage about jesus "fullfilling" the Torah, you cant "fullfill" the Torah laws any more than you can "fullfill" traffic laws. Also its a circular argument: The reason why he's not a Deut 13 is because he's god, and the reason why he's god is because he's not a Deut 13. Jesus always says you are supposed to have faith that he is the messiah, but the whole point of Deut 13 and 18 is that you are NOT supposed to have faith in prophets. They are supposed to be assumed guilty until proven innocent. The pharisees wanted to see a miracle for themselves, instead of relying on unreliable reports from the rumours of the crowds. Jesus was acting like they were heathens to actually want proof, but that was exactly what they were supposed to do. Christians always read the gospels with the idea "Jesus good, Pharisees bad" and they never think that maybe the reason they killed jesus is because they were supposed to because he was a Deut 13.

Actually, maybe not, because as another example of the crazy logic of christians, I've seen christians admit that the High priests had no choice but to kill jesus because it really was blasphemy to do what he did. God knew that jesus went against the rules he put in the Torah and since he wanted jesus to die anyway, it worked out fine. That's why a lot of people know that jesus was committing "suicide by cop."

Amaleq13

John 8:58

At face value, Jesus appears to be claiming pre-existence but not necessarily to be God.

John 14:6-9

Jesus appears to be identifying himself as the sole representative of God but "the Father" seems to be described as a separate entity.

John 18:36-38

Jesus identifies himself as a king of a kingdom "not of this world". I don't see where he claims to be God.

Luke 22:70

Jesus claims to be the Son of God not God.

Luke 7:41

"There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty." (KJV)

I don't see where Jesus is claiming to be God.

Mark 14:62

Jesus identifies himself as "the Christ" and, apparently, the "Son of Man". He does not claim to be God.

Matthew 28:18

Jesus claims to have been given authority over heaven and earth. That suggests the existence of a "giver" independent of Jesus.

Mathew 26:64

Jesus identifies himself with/as the "Son of Man".

Not only do the verses you offer fail to support your claim, several appear to argue against it.

Amaleq13:Assuming Jesus did make such a claim, why shouldn't this make us question his sanity given that he appears to have been praying to himself so frequently?

It does not seem rational to suggest that God would find it necessary to pray to God. The notion is most obviously bizarre when applied to the prayers offered prior the crucifixion:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Mt 26:39, KJV)

Jesus is begging himself to let himself escape being crucified but offering to obey himself no matter what he wants himself to do?

Furyus George

I can see your point. However, context here again raises its ugly head. Who is Paul writing to? Jews. Jews would be very familiar with the verses he is using and would know that all men are considered sinners. That Paul chose to use some from Psalms and some from Isaiah, etc, would not be of consequence to the Jew of the day. They would immediately recognize the verses, and themselves.





You know, I've never really focused on the others who Matthew records as resurrected. The fact that they were with Christ, who has claimed power over death itself, is voucher enough for me.

As for evidence for Sharon45's assertion, yes, I wanted evidence. Why? Because her implication that many Christians deceive Jews by pretending to be Jews is utter, complete nonsense. Had I not challenged it, a reader might assume it was true.





How did Jesus arrrange for His ancestry?
How did Jesus arrange His place of birth?
How did He arrange His execution?
Or soldiers gambling for his underwear?
Or His legs remaining unbroken?
Or the timing of His birth?




More like the classic "I should have been more clear." My apologies. I am not a scholar. I am a truck driver. I do not know the Bible inside-out and upside-down, though I am working on it. My point is that I figured Christianity has survived for 2000 years with Deutoronomy 13 detractors. It can wait for awhile longer while I study areas that have more concern for me. Besides, from my standpoint, Christ claims to be the "Lord your God" that Deut 13 warns against turning away from with belief in other gods.





All at once now, everybody! C-O-N-T-E-X-T! Instead of clinging to Mark 7:14-19, why not read the entire seventh chapter. It's not long. Pay attention to quotation marks.


Furyus George, not so dull

Furyus George

John 8:58 ~ "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Note that the Jews immediately picked up rocks to stone Jesus in the next verse. Why? Look at Exodus 3:14 for the answer.

Exodus 3:14 ~ God said to Moses "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I am has sent me to you."

Jesus claimed to be the I Am. This is why they tried to stone him; Jesus claimed to be God.

I don't have time to address the other points you have made right now, though I will say I incorrectly listed Luke 7:41 when I should have written Luke 7:48.

Furyus George, will return

Amaleq13

Of the examples you offered, this one is really the only one that could be argued to constitute a claim by Jesus to be God but, obvious questions of authenticity aside, I wonder if you know of any evidence supporting the depicted response by the Jews present? In other words, what evidence is there that claiming to be God (even in the rather oblique way depicted) earned one a stoning according to Jewish law rather than simply being considered obviously insane?

It is odd that this claim is so unique among the entire Gospels and that it clearly runs contrary to the majority of depictions in those texts where Jesus is clearly portrayed as considering God as a separate entity from himself (e.g. the Garden prayers). The fact that this claim is found only in the latest Gospel with the most developed theological view of Jesus (according to most scholars as well as the Catholic Study Bible) would seem to suggest this is a belief about Jesus that developed among the faithful rather than something Jesus claimed about himself.

Net2004

Here is a reply to Sharon by a christian from another forum.Can anyone please comment on it

Grief!!!! Paul did not have to "pretend" to be a Jew; He was a Jew. He was born a Jew and raised a Jew. He studied Judaism under Gamaliel. As a Jew, Paul was understood the Jewish perspective on issues. He did not have to "pretend" or "deceive". Because he was a Jew, he was able to debate the Christian faith with Jews. He understood where they were coming from and could debate accordingly.

Although he was a Jew - born and bred - he was also raised in a Gentile world. In Tarsus to be exact. Just as he understood the Jewish mind so he also understood the Gentile mind. Again he did not have to "pretend" anything. Nor did he have to "deceive". When he addressed Gentiles he was able to use the thinking/mindset of Gentiles.


Clear examples can be found in the book of Acts.

Acts 13v13-40. Paul is in a synogogue. He is addressing Jews and those Gentiles who are familiar with the Jewish faith. In his address Paul uses the Scriptures to support his arguements. He is not "pretending" to be a Jew; he is a Jew.

Acts 17v16-30. Paul is in Athens. Presenting the Christian faith not to Jews but to Gentiles. These Gentiles are not synogogue attenders. They are not familiar with the Scriptures. They will not be swayed with with an arguement from the Scriptures - Paul knows this. So he argues "as a gentile" . He starts by using their own religion as an opening (v23); and later he even quotes their own poets (v28). In doing so Paul is not being deceptive (he is not "pretending" to be a pagan, nor is he "pretending" to be a Gentile) but he is simply trying to communicate to them in terms that they will understand.

ghiangelo

hmm lying to promote the faith...? yes Paul was doing that. by stressing that the end was extremely near and that the only path to salvation was Christ, as defined by him, Paul has effectively lied. and it works. it still works to this day. it is the classic 'righteous' lie for the promotion of faith.

during my time as a Jehovah's Witness this was used all the time and still is.

armaggedon stories are such good devices for evangelism and faith, even if they prove to be wrong.

Al Kafirun

I can't believe this thread! Its so funny. Poor old Sensei Meela.

Anyhoo, Paul = big ole pious liar. If you disagree then your conception of truth is highly perverted. A God worth his weight in salt shouldn't require 'noble' deception.

Is the unflattering interpretation of Romans 3:7 backed up in other passages? Yes.

Does the NIV try to absolve him through semantics? Yes. After all, its God's will.