aa5874

The author of a Pauline Epistle claimed he was in prison many times. 2Corintihians 11.23 "Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft."

And it cannot be confirmed that the main character of Acts, the one called Paul, is related in any way to the authors of Ephesians or Colossians.

Ben C Smith

Sorry, Chris, I missed this before.

What change in opinion about the parousia do you see in 2 Thessalonians over and against 1 Thessalonians or the other Paulines?

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Thanks, Andrew. And there are other possible allusions, too.

I am still sorting the Pauline corpus through for myself, and am wondering about the issue of a Pauline collection.

Ben.

andrewcriddle

There are allusions/alleged allusions in 1 Clement to Romans 1 and 2 Corinthians Galatians and Philippians (as well as Ephesians).

As evidence for a Pauline collection the possible allusion to Galatians, is if valid, maybe the strongest.

chapter 5 has
this may be an allusion to Paul's use of Pillars in Galatians for the leaders of the church in Jerusalem. (Galatians 2:9)

In terms of the destination and origin of the other letters one could understand Clement writing from Rome to Corinth knowing and using them. IMO if Clement alludes to Galatians the most likely explanation is that it was part of a collection.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

This probably refers to the sort of event recorded in Acts 16 where Paul is thrown in the local jail for the night and told to leave town next morning.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

1 Clement also has a number of parallels (of varying strengths) with the pastoral epistles. Do you think Clement knew them? Or that their author knew Clement? Or ...?

I have pondered the connection of the pillars in 1 Clement to the pillars in Galatians before, principally in connection to tracking down the identification (or differentiation) of Cephas with (or from) Peter.

Thanks.

Ben.

andrewcriddle

My guess would be that it is more likely that the author of the Pastorals knew Clement.

It is just possibly significant that IIUC there are no significant parallels to 2 Timothy which is IMO earlier than the other pastorals.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley

A long whle ago, when I had too much spare time, I went through the Ante Nicene Church Fathers volume I and created a database of all citations from the NT in all the books contained in that volume. I then checkedf each one to see if I felt it qualified as a quote (Q), an allusion (A), a commonplace saying utilized by both authors that may or may not reflect a literary connection(C) or figments of the imaginations of the editors (N, for "Nothing here"). The final number following the dash is the page number, as I didn't list the chapter. Unforunately, if you don;t have the volum, it might not help you much.

The results for 1 Clement were:

CLEMENT1 Q ACTS 20:35 -5
CLEMENT1 Q COR 1 02:09 -14
CLEMENT1 Q HEB 01:03-04 -15
CLEMENT1 Q JAS 01:08 -11
CLEMENT1 Q JAS 02:23 -7
CLEMENT1 Q LUKE 06:36-38 -8
CLEMENT1 Q MATT 06:12-15 -8
CLEMENT1 Q MATT 07:02 -8
CLEMENT1 Q PET 2 03:03-04 -11
CLEMENT1 Q ROM 01:32 -14
CLEMENT1 Q ROM 12:05 -17
CLEMENT1 Q TIT 03:01 -5

CLEMENT1 A COL 01:18 -11
CLEMENT1 A COR 1 03:13 -18
CLEMENT1 A COR 1 12:12 -15
CLEMENT1 A COR 1 13:04 -18
CLEMENT1 A COR 1 15:20 -11
CLEMENT1 A HEB 13:17 -11
CLEMENT1 A JAS 02:21 -13
CLEMENT1 A JAS 05:20 -18
CLEMENT1 A LUKE 17:02 -18
CLEMENT1 A MARK 09:42 -18
CLEMENT1 A MATT 18:06 -18
CLEMENT1 A MATT 26:24 -17
CLEMENT1 A PET 1 02:17 -5
CLEMENT1 A PET 1 03:20 -7
CLEMENT1 A PET 1 04:08 -18
CLEMENT1 A PET 2 02:05 -7
CLEMENT1 A PET 2 02:06-09 -8
CLEMENT1 A PHI 04:15 -18
CLEMENT1 A THE 1 05:12-13 -11
CLEMENT1 A TIM 1 05:21 -11

CLEMENT1 C COR 1 16:01-02 -16
CLEMENT1 C COR 2 01:21 -6
CLEMENT1 C EPH 04:04-06 -17
CLEMENT1 C EPH 04:20 -6
CLEMENT1 C EPH 05:21 -5
CLEMENT1 C HEB 06:18 -12
CLEMENT1 C HEB 11:05 -7
CLEMENT1 C HEB 11:37 -9
CLEMENT1 C HEB 12:01 -10
CLEMENT1 C JAS 04:01 -17
CLEMENT1 C LUKE 08:05 -12
CLEMENT1 C MATT 24:35 -12
CLEMENT1 C PET 1 05:05 -5
CLEMENT1 C PHI 02:30 -20
CLEMENT1 C ROM 09:05 -13
CLEMENT1 C ROM 15:15-16 -16
CLEMENT1 C ROM 16:03-04 -20
CLEMENT1 C TIT 01:02 -12
CLEMENT1 C TIT 02:14 -21

CLEMENT1 N COR 1 01:31 -8
CLEMENT1 N COR 1 10:26,28 -19
CLEMENT1 N COR 2 10:17 -8
CLEMENT1 N HEB 01:05 -15
CLEMENT1 N HEB 01:07 -15
CLEMENT1 N HEB 01:13 -15
CLEMENT1 N HEB 03:02 -10
CLEMENT1 N HEB 03:05 -16
CLEMENT1 N HEB 10:37 -11
CLEMENT1 N HEB 11:17 -8
CLEMENT1 N HEB 11:31 -8
CLEMENT1 N HEB 12:06 -20
CLEMENT1 N JAS 04:06 -13
CLEMENT1 N MARK 07:06 -9
CLEMENT1 N MATT 15:08 -9
CLEMENT1 N PET 1 05:05 -13
CLEMENT1 N REV 22:12 -14
CLEMENT1 N ROM 04:03 -7
CLEMENT1 N TIM 2 04:21 -21

Buyer beware ... this was not conducted in any sort of scientific manner.

DCH

aa5874

Does Acts explain how characters such as those called Paul are given, pen, paper and ink to write about a Christ in prison, for whom these very characters are being imprisoned, and are allowed to have these epistles picked up by their acquaintances and then distributed?

Colosians 4.2-3, "Continue in prayer, and watch in the same manner with thanksgiving;
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ; for which I am also in bonds.

Ephesians 6.19-20, "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly as I ought to speak.

It is preposterous to me that a prisoner would be allowed to continue the same activity for which he was imprisioned and also to be supplied with the paraphernalia to continue his alleged crime.

I wonder who would have purchasd the ink, pens and paper and brought them to these authors in prison.

The circumstances under which Ephesians and Colosians were written appear to be incredulous, I seriously doubt these authors veracity.

Ben C Smith

I agree that this datum, which seems to me to be accurate, is suggestive, as it has seemed to me for separate reasons that 2 Timothy is in a little bit different class than the other pastorals.

There is an online list of Clementine parallels to NT texts, but the compiler, G. Miller, has made no attempt to differentiate the stronger from the weaker possibilities, and those from 2 Timothy appear to be rather anemic.

Ben.