manu dibango

Which eastern fathers are you meaning?

It's january again so I am back. :wave:

Jedi Mind Trick

Hi again zaitzeff,

I did some more poking around on this...

Here is an interesting read on the Zoroastrian connection and the relative mixing of ideas.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/zor5.htm
It seems from this article, which appears to be a fair treatment, that many of the concepts in Zoroastrian religion were well established by the time of the Babylonian exile of the Jews and their subsequent unfettering by the Persian king Cyrus. In some ways Judaism and Zoroastrianism evolved along the similar lines but ultimately they came into contact and there was significant borrowing. Some concepts are more easily traced to Zoroastrian influence, such as those found in Eschatology, Demonology, Angelology, and the concept of a place posthumous reward and punishment… Interesting to note is that the concept of a paradise was not in Judaism prior to the exile. Or so the article says…

There was also mention made of the parallel evolution of a messiah. The Jews had the concept and called him, duh… messiah… and the Persian idea was the Sayoshant.

Evidently, these concepts were in Zoroastrian scripture called the Gathas and predate the Babylonian exile of the Jews by about 1000 years.

zaitzeff

from a book by Hanson, 1899:

Testimony of the Catacombs.

The principal device, scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior's solicitude, after departing from this life.13

Clement of Alexandria
and
Origen

Some of the fathers who had achieved a faith in Universalism, were influenced by the mischievous notion that it was to be held esoterically, cherished in secret, or only communicated to the chosen few,--withheld from the multitude, who would not appreciate it, and even that the opposite error would, with some sinners, be more beneficial than the truth. Clement of Alexandria admits that he does not write or speak certain truths. Origen claims that there are doctrines not to be communicated to the ignorant. Clement says: "They are not in reality liars who use circumlocution 6 because of the oeconomy of salvation." Origen said that "all that might be said on this theme is not expedient to explain now, or to all. For the mass need no further teaching on account of those who hardly through the fear of æonian punishment restrain their recklessness." The reader of the patristic literature sees this opinion frequently, and unquestionably it caused many to hold out threats to the multitude in order to restrain them; threats that they did not themselves believe would be executed.8

The gross and carnal interpretation given to parts of the Gospel, causing some, as Origen said, to "believe of God what would not be believed of the cruelest of mankind," caused him to dwell upon the duty of reserve, which he does in many of his homilies. He says that he can not fully express himself on the mystery of eternal punishment in an exoteric statement.9 . . .

Theophilus (A.D. 180). This author has left a "Treatise" in behalf of Christianity, addressed to Autolycus, a learned heathen. He uses current language on the subject of punishment, but says: "Just as a vessel, which, after it has been made, has some flaw, is remade or remodeled, that it may become new and right, so it comes to man by death. For, in some way or other he is broken up, that he may come forth in the resurrection whole, I mean spotless, and righteous, and immortal." . .

The reader must not fail to observe that the "Sibylline Oracles" explicitly state the deliverance of the damned from the torments of hell. They repeatedly call the suffering everlasting, even "immortal," yet declare that it shall end in the restoration of the lost. . .

The thoroughly Greek mind of Clement, with his great imagination, vast learning and research, splendid ability, and divine spirit, could scarcely misinterpret or misunderstand the New Testament Scriptures, written as they were in his mother tongue, and it is not difficult to believe with Bunsen, that in this seat and center of Christian culture and Christian learning, he became "the first Christian philosopher of the history of mankind. He believed in a universal plan of a divine education of the human race. . .

Clement's Language.
Passages from the works of Clement, only a few of which we quote, will sufficiently establish the fact that he taught universal restoration. "For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. * * * But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent." "So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. ii:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life." "For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord's people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually." 11 . . .

Athanasius (A.D. 296-373). This great man was a student of Origen and speaks of him with favor, defends him as orthodox, and quotes him as authority. He argues for the possibility and pardon for even the sin against the Holy Ghost. He says: "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that he promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.'" On Ps. lxviii, 18: "When, then, the whole creation shall meet the Son in the clouds, and shall be subject to him, then, too, shall the Son himself be subject to the Father, as being a faithful Apostle, and High Priest of all creation, that God may be all in all."5 Athanasius nominated Didymus the Blind as president of the Catechetical school of Alexandria, where he presided sixty years, an acknowledged Universalist, which is certainly evidence of the sympathies, if not of the real views of Athanasius. He called Origen a "wonderful and most laborious man," and offers no condemnation of his eschatology. . .

Didymus, "the illustrations," the Blind, was born, it is supposed, in Alexandria, A.D. 309. He became entirely blind when four years of age, and learned to write by using tablets of wood. He knew the Scriptures by heart, through hearing them read. He died, universally esteemed, A.D. 395. He was held to be strictly orthodox, though known to cherish the views of Origen on universal restoration. After his death, in the councils of A.D. 553, 680, and 787, he was anathematized for advocating Origen's "Abominable doctrine of the transmigration of souls," but nothing is said in condemnation of his pronounced Universalism. . .

Gregory Nazianzen.
Bishop of Constantinople.
Gregory of Nazianzus, born A.D. 330, was one of the greatest orators of the ancient church. Gibbon sarcastically says: "The title of Saint has been added to his name, but the tenderness of his heart, and the elegance of his genius, reflect a more pleasing luster on the memory of Gregory Nazianzen." The child of a Christian mother, Nonna, he was instructed in youth in the elements of religion. He enjoyed an early acquaintance with Basil, and in Alexandria with Athanasius. With Basil his friendship was so strong that Gregory says it was only one soul in two bodies. A.D. 361, he became presbyter, and in 379 he was called to the charge of the small, divided orthodox church in Constantinople, which had been almost annihilated by the prevalence of Arianism. He so strengthened and increased it, that the little chapel became the splendid "Church of the Resurrection." A.D. 380 the Emperor Theodosius deposed the Arian bishop, and transferred the cathedral to Gregory. He was elected bishop of Constantinople in May, 381, and was president of the OEcumenical council in Constantinople, while Gregory Nyssa added the clauses to the Nicene creed. He resigned because of the hostility of other bishops, and passed his remaining days in religious and literary pursuits. He died A.D. 390 or 391. He was second to Chrysostom as an orator in the Greek church. More than this, he was one of the purest and best of men, and his was one of the five or six greatest names in the church's first five hundred years. Prof. Schaff styles him "one of the champions of Orthodoxy."

Gregory says: "God brings the dead to life as partakers of fire or light. But whether even all shall hereafter partake of God, let it be elsewhere discussed." Again he says: "I know also of a fire not cleansing () but chastising (), * * * unless anyone chooses even in this case to regard it more humanely, and creditably to the Chastiser." This is a remarkable instance of the esoteric, and well may Petavius say: "It is manifest that in this place St. Gregory is speaking of the punishments of the damned, and doubted whether they would be eternal, or rather to be estimated in accordance with the goodness of God, so as at some time to be terminated." And Farrar well observes: "If this last sentence had not been added the passage would have been always quoted as a most decisive proof that this eminently great father and theologian held, without any modification, the severest form of the doctrine of endless torments." . .

Theodore of Mopsuestia and the Nestorians.
Theodore of Mopsuestia was born in Antioch, A.D. 350, and died 428 or 429. He ranked next to Origen in the esteem of the ancient church. For nearly fifty years he maintained the cause of the church in controversy with various classes of assailants, and throughout his life his orthodoxy was regarded as unimpeachable. He was bishop for thirty-six years, and died fill of honors; but after he had been in his grave a hundred and twenty-five years, the church had become so corrupted by heathenism that it condemned him for heresy. He was anathematized for Nestorianism, but his Universalism was not stigmatized. His great renown and popularity must have caused his exalted views of God's character and man's destiny to prevail more extensively among the masses than appears in the surviving literature of his times.

His own words are: "The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of his grace. For he never would have said, 'until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,' unless we can be released from suffering after having suffered adequately for sin; nor would he have said, 'he shall be beaten with many stripes,' and again, 'he shall be beaten with few stripes,' unless the punishment to be endured for sin will have an end." 1 . . .

The Mass of Christians Universalists.

Basil says in one place, in a work attributed to him, "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished."11 If the work is not Basil's, the testimony as to the state of opinion at that time is no less valuable: "The mass of men say that there is to be an end of punishment." . .

Opinions in the Fourth Century.

The Council of Constantinople, A.D. 381, which perfected the Nicene Creed, was participated in by the two Gregorys; Gregory Nazianzen presided and Gregory Nyssen added the clauses to the Nicene creed that are in italics on a previous page in this volume. They were both Universalists. Would any council, in ancient or modern times, composed of believers in endless punishment, select an avowed Universalist to preside over its deliberations, and guide its "doctrinal transactions?" . .

Ambrose of Milan.
Ambrose of Milan, A.D. 340-398, says: "What then hinders our believing that he who is beaten small as the dust is not annihilated, but is changed for the better; so that, instead of an earthly man, he is made a spiritual man, and our believing that he who is destroyed, is so destroyed that all taint is removed, and there remains but what is pure and clean. And in God's saying of the adversaries of

Jerusalem, 'They shall be as though they were not," you are to understand they shall exist substantially, and as converted, but shall not exist as enemies. * * * God gave death, not as a penalty, but as a remedy; death was given for a remedy as the end of evils." * * * "How shall the sinner exist in the future, seeing the place of sin cannot be of long continuance?" 3

and more found at
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html