Amaleq13

Who cares about context, this phrase seems to support me?

I guess that is better than "disingenuous" but it can't be by much.

aa5874

But Apollonius was not presented as an ordinary man in "Against Hierocles", he was presented as divine with remarkable powers who became a priest while in his boyhood.

Against Hierocles" Eusebius was trying to contradict Hierocles that Apolonius was extraordinary, was greater in divinity with more miracle working power than Jesus.

Apollonius was presented as extraordinary, even as a boy, in Against Hierocles.

Ben C Smith

Page 124:

As we have shown in chapter II, the cities which worshipped Apollonius and preserved his tradition flourished in the fourth century.

Page 67:

We already know Apollonius' letter to his brother Hestiaeus (Epp. Apoll. 44) which makes it clear that Apollonius was considered the equal to gods, or even that some thought him to be a god himself.

You are still using the term mythicize, but have not yet fulfilled my request that you clarify exactly what you mean by it. Until I know what you mean, I cannot answer this question.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Do you believe that Apollonius was divine, with remarkable powers, and that he became a priest while in his boyhood? Are you considering enrolling in his cult?

Ben.

patcleaver

Do you think that Life of Apollonius which was written hundreds of years after Apollonius died, and was believed to be based on the Letters of Apollionus which are believed to be forgeries, and was written for the purpose of apologetics of a local hero, is a reasonable basis for believing anything that it contains. Do you also believe the miracles described in this document?

This says that Apollonius received the same honor as a Roman Emperor. It does not say that he was worshiped as a God. There were other shrines to heroes who were not worshiped as Gods.

The issue that we are discussing is whether Jesus was an ordinary man who was mythicized into a God. Is there anything that you have found about Apollionius that makes you think that it is more likely that Jesus was an ordinary man who was mythicized into a God? What is it?

Ben C Smith

Would you mind telling me how you are arriving at your figure of hundreds of years? I calculate no more than about 130.

Not all of the letters are believed to be forgeries. Some are.

I think the miracles are legendary. And I do not know what you mean by apologetics in this context.

Again, please define mythicize for me.

Ben.

patcleaver

You have been trying to show us evidence that Apollonius was worshiped as a God, and I know you have been doing lots of work because its always more work when you can't find something. You know that if you find good evidence that I will admit that its true and believe it - you know it, because its happened too many damn times on this forum. But I have another question. What is the evidence that he was an ordinary man? I heard somewhere that there is some document with his name on it, but is there really a good case that he was a real person and not just a story?

aa5874

Why? Are you looking for lost souls for Apollonius? You are a believer, you may be a perfect candidate to believe in Apollonius, he was presented similar to Jesus, as a God. All Gods can save people after they are dead. So I hear.

Apollonius was not presented as an ordinary man, from boyhood he became a priest of Aesclepius, and did many miracles.

It may have been thought that the divine Apollonius with his extraordinary powers and many miracles, made Jesus, also believed to be a God, look like an ordinary man.

Against Hierocles
And further Eusebius presented Jesus as a God.

Ben C Smith

What is this about? Why are you trying to psychologize? I am not the one who was unaware that Apollonius was worshipped by some as a god. I was the one who presented him to you as precisely such a figure. Remember? Do you think I just made that up on the fly and then happened to find support for it in Dzielska, in epistle 44, and in the Life of Apollonius? One could only wish for such a stroke of good luck.

Excellent.

Lucian wrote Alexander about 60-80 years after Apollonius died; an older man known to Alexander was a follower of Apollonius. Lucian treats him as a charlatan.

Origen in Against Celsus 6.41 notes that Moiragenes wrote a memoir of Apollonius.

Cassius Dio mentions Apollonius in connection with Caracalla.

All of these mentions precede Philostratus.

There is also an inscription.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

No. I am wondering why you are bringing up Apollonius as a possible parallel for Jesus when all along you have been claiming Jesus did not exist. Perhaps you think Apollonius did not exist, too?

Ben.