Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vijeno · 11-13-2008, 03:55 AM

Thanks, Toto, this is truly interesting!

GakuseiDon · 11-13-2008, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

(and argued about such things as how much earlier Moses was than the Trojan war.)

That is a very good point, thanks. Could you point me to an example?

Tertullian's Apology:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...llian_apol.htm

If you happen to have heard of a certain Moses, I speak first of him: he is as far back as the Argive Inachus; by nearly four hundred years-only seven less-he precedes Danaus, your most ancient name; while he antedates by a millennium the death of Priam. I might affirm, too, that he is five hundred years earlier than Homer, and have supporters of that view.

Roger Pearse · 11-13-2008, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

(and argued about such things as how much earlier Moses was than the Trojan war.)

That is a very good point, thanks. Could you point me to an example?

It's fairly common, but the example that springs to mind is Eusebius.

Book 1 of Eusebius' Chronicle does this, rather naturally since he's trying to work out a world Chronology. I have a copy of the translation into English by Andrew Smith from the modern Latin translation of the ancient Armenian translation of the now lost Greek text here.

But the excellent Robert Bedrosian has just released a translation direct from the Armenian here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 11-13-2008, 01:25 PM

The date of Moses is discussed by Julius Africanus

Quote:

Now, in the first year of that period of 1020 years, stretching from Moses and Ogygus to the first Olympiad, the passover and the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt took place, and also in Attica the flood of Ogygus. And that is according to reason. For when the Egyptians were being smitten in the anger of God with hail and storms, it was only to be expected that certain parts of the earth should suffer with them; and, in especial, it was but to be expected that the Athenians should participate in such calamity with the Egyptians, since they were supposed to be a colony from them, as Theopompus alleges in his Tricarenus, and others besides him.

Andrew Criddle

vijeno · 11-14-2008, 02:49 AM

Thanks guys. I'll have a few reading sessions. :-)

aa5874 · 11-14-2008, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The date of Moses is discussed by Julius Africanus

Quote:

Now, in the first year of that period of 1020 years, stretching from Moses and Ogygus to the first Olympiad, the passover and the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt took place, and also in Attica the flood of Ogygus. And that is according to reason. For when the Egyptians were being smitten in the anger of God with hail and storms, it was only to be expected that certain parts of the earth should suffer with them; and, in especial, it was but to be expected that the Athenians should participate in such calamity with the Egyptians, since they were supposed to be a colony from them, as Theopompus alleges in his Tricarenus, and others besides him.

Andrew Criddle

But, Africanus' chronological records all start from Adam based on the very same link you provided.

And further, the writings of Origen clearly shows that he believed that the God of the Jews created the world and that Adam was the very first man.

Clivedurdle · 11-14-2008, 06:54 AM

Were Romulus and Remus brought up by wolves?

mountainman · 11-14-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The date of Moses is discussed by Julius Africanus

But, Africanus' chronological records all start from Adam based on the very same link you provided.

Dear Andrew and aa5874,

Need I remind you how fortunate we are that Eusebius preserved the works of Julius Africanus? Here is how Arnaldo Momigliano puts it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

At the beginning of the fourth century Christian chronology had already passed its creative stage. What Eusebius did was to correct and to improve the work of his predecessors, among whom he relied especially on Julius Africanus (14). He corrected details which seemed to him wrong even to the extent of reducing the priority of the Biblical heroes over the pagan ones. Moses, a contemporary of Ogyges according to Julius Africanus, was made a contemporary of Kekrops with a loss of 300 years.

Were you aware there was a loss of 300 years?
Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Quote:

And further, the writings of Origen clearly shows that he believed that the God of the Jews created the world and that Adam was the very first man.

The writings of Origen provide the very first "first-hand" account of what it is like as a prominent third century christian author having to defend himself on all sides by all forms of christian heretics. Underground networks of heretics all bent on being malicious towards the one true canonical set of documents written in greek for a greek audience, which finally, thank christ, made it to the epoch of Constantine intact! (See Rufinus' "On the Adulteration of the Books of Origen")

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 11-14-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The date of Moses is discussed by Julius Africanus

Andrew Criddle

But, Africanus' chronological records all start from Adam based on the very same link you provided.

And further, the writings of Origen clearly shows that he believed that the God of the Jews created the world and that Adam was the very first man.

My original post said

Quote:

The very early chapters of Genesis were regarded by some of the ancients as mythical in our sense. eg Origen probably did not believe in a historical Adam although he did believe in a historical Noah.

ie some like Origen apparently did not believe in a historical Adam, others like Africanus did.

Origen's position can be deduced from works such as Contra Celsus Book 4

Quote:

But as he [Celsus] asserts that "the Mosaic narrative most impiously represents God as in a state of weakness from the very commencement (of things), and as unable to gain over (to obedience) even one single man whom He Himself had formed," we say in answer that the objection is much the same as if one were to find fault with the existence of evil, which God has not been able to prevent even in the case of a single individual, so that one man might be found from the very beginning of things who was born into the world untainted by sin. For as those whose business it is to defend the doctrine of providence do so by means of arguments which are not to be despised, so also the subjects of Adam and his sin will be philosophically dealt with by those who are aware that in the Hebrew language Adam signifies man; and that in those parts of the narrative which appear to refer to Adam as an individual, Moses is discoursing upon the nature of man in general. For "in Adam" (as the Scripture says) "all die," and were condemned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, the word of God asserting this not so much of one particular individual as of the whole human race. For in the connected series of statements which appears to apply as to one particular individual, the curse pronounced upon Adam is regarded as common to all (the members of the race), and what was spoken with reference to the woman is spoken of every woman without exception. And the expulsion of the man and woman from paradise, and their being clothed with tunics of skins (which God, because of the transgression of men, made for those who had sinned), contain a certain secret and mystical doctrine (far transcending that of Plato) of the souls losing its wings, and being borne downwards to earth, until it can lay hold of some stable resting-place.

There are however, as you claim, other passages in Origen which can be taken to imply belief in a historical Adam. Which exactly of those passages were you referring to ?

Andrew Criddle

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11-13-2008, 03:55 AM	#11
vijeno Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: vienna Posts: 74	Thanks, Toto, this is truly interesting!

11-14-2008, 02:49 AM	#15
vijeno Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: vienna Posts: 74	Thanks guys. I'll have a few reading sessions. :-)

11-14-2008, 06:54 AM	#17
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Were Romulus and Remus brought up by wolves?

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