Exciter

Shit! I thought this was the "atheist suicide bomber" thread! It's getting hard to tell which thread is which

Well he's completely retreated from me, which is good in a way. The por lil' fella's getting it from all sides, and I really feel he's even more confused then when I first started attacking him.

I'm sorry dr. lazer blast, can we still be friends?><

Soul Invictus

Is there any information that verifies that this occurred?

thentian

Let us now go patiently through each of dr lazers blasts various statements one by one:

In post nr 139 in this topic I wrote the following after looking over his list of 20th century mass murderers:

To which he answered in post 142:

To which I replied in post 146:

This prompted the following reply:
Realizing that dlb was probably mistaking PRC for RoC, I replied the following in post 165:

Still unwilling to admit that he can ever be wrong about anything, dr lazer blast has gone on to reply as follows:

From this it is clear that dr lazer blast has now realized that Sir Reginald Fleming Johnston was after all appointed commissioner of Weihavei as I pointed out in my first post.

He still claims that I have made "embarrassing factual inaccuracies" and "blatent factual errors", though. Perhaps he can point them out for me? He also accuses me of "totally obvious ignorance of historical facts ".

Then he tries to shift the focus by pointing out that I said "minister" instead of "member of the cabinet". I actually thought that members of the cabinet and ministers are pretty much the same thing, but I could be wrong. English is only a second language for me, after all. Apologies if that is the case.

It is unclear to me whether dr lazer blast still thinks Sir Reginald Fleming Johnston was part of a chinese cabinet or if he just thinks Johnston was part of some cabinet on Weihaiwei, or if he has now realized that Johnston was simply appointed commissioner of british-held Weihaiwei as I pointed out in my first post.

It is very clear to me that dr lazer blast will never provide evidence that Sir Reginald Fleming Johnston was a mass murderer, for obvious reasons.

dr lazer blast

what new thread are you even talking about? and there has been no adjustment of figures.

I misspell a lot of things in my posts so me misspelling louie means little to nothing and has no bearing on anything. Just another example of nitpicking.
when did I ever say he was a good king? nice strawman. You probably have no idea of the context in which I said that. Lets go back sha'll we?
ah yes you were totally ignorant in the context I used. I was talking about kings that held absolute power, a good example would be king louie, considering he was a king that held absolute power, furthermore you were ignorant as to which king louis i was talking about. Looks like you didn't know what you were talking about.

Sabine has enganged in a logical fallacy of a strawman.
Sabine also seems to be unaware of the fact that I never said anything about atheists wishing upon their fellow human beings to be tormented eternally. The quoted above is totally different from the original point which was 'atheism combined with absolute power is more deadly than christianity combined with absolute power' Sabine seems to be as ignorant of logic and properly addressing arguments as genisis is ignorant of history.
Proportion has nothing to do with anything. 148 million to like 8 million is staggering.

Sabine once again engages in a logical fallacy by setting up strawman. Nowhere have I said the atheists listed committed or ordered genocides.

Sabine seems to be dishonestly portraying mein kampf considering several points he has failed to mention.

1. Mein kampf was a book that is very similar to the books written by politicians in our time, and was written coincidentally while hitler was trying to gain power, much like politicians in our day write books during their run for office.

2. mein kampf was written while he was in prison after he failed beer hall putsch, where he tried unsuccessfully to usurp power which suggests that the book was a desperate attempt to get the 'people' on his side to prevent a negative view of him and the nazi party after the beerk hall putch incident.

3. Hitlers private statements contradict a lot of the religious views he wrote about in mein kampf which suggests he was using religion to help promote his racist ideologies.

Once again what sabine doesn't seem to understand is the circumstances around which hitler wrote the mein kampf which are explained above. Hitler used various propaganda, lies, charismatic ortary and other tactics to promote control, so using religion to control and promote his ideals are not out of the question.


Now sabine has resorted to ad hom attacks and has tried to change the subject while aptly ignoring the fact that her claim has proven wrong with 2 simple sentences.

considering your tract record of logical fallacies it seems that I will introduce you to what debating means.

another strawman fallacy while also ignoring the fact that commiting suicide is a sin is direct evidence against his religiosity, while I admit it was a poor choice of words for me to say it is proof of his atheism because it is not, but it is evidence against his religiosity which is among the many other things you have ignored.


Thats great that you agree with richard carrier, however both of you share something in common, that is the lack of proof to support your claim.


'it' just happens to be a book similar to the other books politicians make that use propaganda and lies to sway people to their cause.

You are just going to have to deal with the fact that this book was written after a failed attempt to usurp power, while in jail, in a desperate attempt to keep a good public image of him and the nazi group alive.'
and I repeat, there is evidence that supports him being atheist and a christian, using religion to control and promote his ideals.

And you seem to have completly ignored the quote I provided. Typical.


You seem to not understand that my goal is to demonosrate that there is evidence that says hitler was an atheist and also evidence that says hitler was a theist, so you are actually proving my point.



of course your constant references to mein kampf are lacking the facts that are layed out above.
another example of you ignoring want.

Now sabine is disagreeing with a historian and asserting things with no evidence. Classic.


Somehow sabine thinks that a history lesson on rosenburg is a logical rebuttal.

thentian

Stalin killed about 95000 and his predecessor Lenin killed about 1300 priests and other clerics. The numbers are from Wikipedia (look up the Russian Orthodox church) but seem to originate from the church itself, IIRC. I made a link to that somewhere previously in this thread.

As horrifying as those numbers are, they are still a very small percentage of Stalin's total kills.

ETA: Did he kill them because he hated religious people? Hard to tell, but it is arguable that he wanted to curb the church' power and confiscate their assets.

Exciter

I wonder why lazer blast even cares about those religious people. They probably aren't even considered Christians by his denomination's doctrine of faith. If he really knew them he'd probably compare them to Christians like the Ku Klux Klaners.

I know! He's using them for his own agenda.

If his congregation has really sent doc here to do research on atheism, they sound like a lot of the failing churches across the United States, so now they are trying all sorts of zany missions to try to bring people into their fold.

What ever his denomination of Christianity might happen to be, the fact that the higher ups in the church make their living from donations, also called tithes, shows why they are coming up with all this bullshit to try and get more membership.

Hey doc, what's the matter, did invite a friend to church fail as miserably as everyone of your threads has, so now you guys have to resort to this suicide mission of attacking atheists?

lazer blast's church is no different then any of the church's that robbed the hell of people since talking snakes became extinct...

Some Communists may not have believed in any God, like Lenin supposedly, but any deaths should be attributed to the religious for the role they played.
It takes two to Tango!

C_Mucius_Scaevola

I think it's pretty important to distinguish between King Louis (I presume you mean XIV) and King Louie. One was the Sun King who ruled France for 72 years; the other was King of the Swingers. Not difficult to tell apart, really.
And, BTW, Charlemagne is actually a very poor example of an absolute monarch. As in more or less all early medieval kingdoms, much power in the Frankish lands was in the hands of the local barons with the king in the role of primus inter pares. He's a great example of a xian ruler, though, as his swordpoint conversion of the Saxons showed. 4500 beheaded in one day at the massacre of Verden; just think what he could have done with 20th century technology!

C_M_S

ELECTROGOD

Stalin:
Was brought up by the Orthodox Church, also had trained to be a priest. His hero was Ivan the Terrible

("terrible" possibly being a mistranslation), a "real" Christian.
After his political crackdown on rebellious church leaders (and others) he then re-instituted the Orthodox church.

-------------

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin)

Lenin:
Lenin was baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church (as a child).

[Clearly he was all about a political movement and the church was targeted only because they tried to rise up against his power.]

According to Orlando Figes, Lenin had always been an advocate of “mass terror against enemies of the revolution” and was open about his view that the proletarian state was a system of organized violence against the capitalist establishment. Figes also claims that the terror, while encouraged by the Bolsheviks, had its roots in a popular anger against the privileged.
In a letter of March 19, 1922, to Molotov and the members of the Politburo, following an uprising by the clergy in the town of Shuia, Lenin outlined a brutal plan of action against the clergy and their followers, who were defying the government decree to remove church valuables: "We must (...) put down all resistance with such brutality that they will not forget it for several decades. (...) The greater the number of representatives of the reactionary clergy and reactionary bourgeoisie we succeed in executing (...) the better."According to Church records, 2,691 priests, 1,962 monks and 3,447 nuns were killed that year.

While Lenin remained opposed to outward forms of anti-semitism (and all forms of racism), allowing Jewish people to rise to the highest offices in both party and state, certain historians such as Dmitri Volkogonov argue that the record of his government in this regard was highly uneven. It is claimed that Lenin was aware of pogroms carried out by units of the Red Army during the war with Poland, though the whole issue was effectively ignored. Dmitri Volkogonov generalizes that "While condemning anti-Semitism in general, Lenin was unable to analyse, let alone eradicate, its prevalence in Soviet society". Likewise, the hostility of the Soviet regime towards all religion made no exception for Judaism, and the 1921 campaign against religion saw the seizure of many synagogues (whether this should be regarded as anti-Semitism is a matter of definition since Orthodox churches received the same treatment).

The chaotic years of World War I, the February and October Revolutions, and the Civil War were fertile ground for the antisemitism that was endemic to tsarist Russia. During the war, Jews were accused of sympathizing with Germany and often persecuted. Russian anti-semitism continued even after the lifting of official anti-Jewish restrictions by the February regime and the Bolsheviks. Pogroms were unleashed throughout the Civil War, perpetrated by virtually every competing faction, from anarchists, to Polish and Ukrainian nationalists to the Red and White Armies.

Continuing the policy of the Bolsheviks before the Revolution, Lenin and the Bolshevik Party strongly condemned the pogroms, including official denunciations in 1918 by the Council of People's Commissars. Opposition to the pogroms and to manifestations of Russian anti-semitism in this era were complicated by both the official bolshevik policy of assimilationism towards all national and religious minorities, and concerns about overemphasizing Jewish concerns for fear of exacerbating popular anti-semitism, as the White forces were openly identifying the Bolshevik regime with Jews.

In September 1918, during the Red Terror, 25 former tsarist ministers and high civil servants along with 765 so-called White Guards were shot in Moscow. Lenin personally signed the execution lists. Despite this attempt by Lenin to stop them the Whites continued active and indulged in a massive anti-Red terror and also pogroms against the Jews. For instance the Whites killed 115,000 Ukrainian Jews in 1919 alone. According to historian Christopher Read the numbers killed by the White forces were on a comparable scale to the Bolsheviks and probably can be numbered in hundreds of thousands. But, according to The Black Book of Communism, the two types of terror were not on the same level. The Red Terror, which was official policy, was more systematic, better organized, and targeted at whole social classes.

Lenin was intrigued with technology and in 1919 recorded eight of his speeches on gramophone records. Seven were later re-recorded and put on sale in the Khrushchev era. Significantly the one which was suppressed outlined Lenin’s feelings on anti-Semitism:

“The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. … Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. … It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations… Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers… Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations."

However, according to Jewish historian Zvi Gitelman: "Never before in Russian history — and never subsequently has a government made such an effort to uproot and stamp out anti-Semitism".

Exciter

And here I thought old doc laser blast was talking about this guy, he was a pretty nice fella, kinda long winded, but nice.

I'm glad someone cleared that up, I thought doc had really stepped of the deep end on that one...

thentian

Dr R J Rummel has made an estimate of Communist Democide 1900-1987. I guess this is the best one available. For those who can't be bothered to follow the link I'll just give the totals here:

Low estimate: 40 472 000
Mid estimate: 110 286 000
High estimate: 259 432 000

It is very interesting to read what he has to say about the causes behind all this bloodshed:

Cheers!