Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 10-21-2006, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

One interesting aspect of this story occurs in Matthew 2:19-22:

Why would the "angel of the Lord" tell Joseph to move the family to the "land of Israel" when the angel knew, or should have known, that Archelaus was ruling over Judea? Why not just tell Joseph to move to Galilee in the first place?

Because the angel of the Lord is the deceiver who wanted Joseph to take the short-cut to the promised land and not take the Galilee route where salvation is supposed to be worked out under Mary (sic), who does her work in good faith.

bajan · 10-21-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I don't think any of those could have stood over a certain spot.

So it wasn't a star; Matthew is in error.

GakuseiDon · 10-21-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bajan

So it wasn't a star; Matthew is in error.

Well, it was a "star", because that's what Matthew wrote. But I think the meaning was slightly broader than what we use today.

Still, it's an interesting question -- stars were the lights stuck in the firmament overhead (unless they fell as "falling stars"). Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

bajan · 10-21-2006, 04:00 PM

I'm sorry GakuseiDon but I just don't buy it. Stars do not do this, never have done & never will do. If people thought they did 2000 years ago they were plain wrong. It is really not worth taking this detail too seriously for it is clearly in the realm of supernature.

If you want to believe that the visitation of the wise men gave some sort of credence to a royal birth I don't think it is necessary to argue that a star could have stood over a house long enough for these guys to get there.

FEZZFACTOR · 10-21-2006, 08:55 PM

After they had heard the king, they set went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
~ Matt.2:9

This "star" was not a supernova or a three planet conjuction--nay, both theories avoid the fact that supernovas and a conjuction of planets are terrible guide-stars. The three wise-men were no doubt Hebrews who chose not to return to their homeland after Cyrus allowed them to return to Judea. The star described in Scripture is moving and then stops over the place where Jesus was born. Such a star is an ancient description of what moderns call a UFO-sighting--but its not a material UFO, its the glory of God or a company of angels.

bajan · 10-21-2006, 09:27 PM

Well I must admit I hadn't thought of that one. But how about a firefly that got stuck on the chimney?

LoungeHead · 10-22-2006, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Why did the wise men go to Herod? The star rose in the east, but they travelled west.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

The star didn't lead them at all, so it didn't matter whether it rose in the east or the west.

Actually, the wise men came from the north (modern Turkey). And the star they followed was in fact a worm hole, which they travelled through from the 14th or 15th century. All depictions of the wise men I have seen, show them dressed in attire of late medieval Ottoman Turks?

Chili · 10-22-2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoungeHead

Actually, the wise men came from the north (modern Turkey). And the star they followed was in fact a worm hole, which they travelled through from the 14th or 15th century. All depictions of the wise men I have seen, show them dressed in attire of late medieval Ottoman Turks?

As allegory the wise men came from East of Asshur where the Tigris "flows" into the Euphrates that itself does not wind or twist or flow anywhere but just is. Eu-phrates means bright-mind which is constant in the same way that "I AM" just is. The gift of wisdom is needed to illuminate I AM, or one is forced to accept that God needs a flashlight to enlighten believers and that is just opposite to what Epiphany represents in this story.

John Kesler · 10-22-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

I don't know of this exact example, but cosmic phenomena were sometimes associated with important events. Consider this excerpt from Pliny the Elder, emphasis mine:

Quote:

The only place in the whole world where a comet is the object of worship is a temple at Rome. His late Majesty Augustus had deemed this comet very propitious to himself; as it had appeared at the beginning of his rule, at some games which, not long after the decease of his father Caesar, as a member of the college founded by him he was celebrating in honour of Mother Venus. In fact he made public the joy that it gave him in these words: ' On the very days of my Games a comet was visible for seven days in the northern part of the sky. It was rising about an hour before sunset, and was a bright star, visible from all lands. The common people believed that this star signified the soul of Caesar received among the spirits of the immortal gods, and on this account the emblem of a star was added to the bust of Caesar that we shortly afterwards dedicated in the forum.' This was his public utterance, but privately he rejoiced because he interpreted the comet as having been born for his own sake and as containing his own birth within it; and, to confess the truth, it did have a health-giving influence over the world.

As many commentaries and study Bibles note, Matthew's source for the "wandering star" may be Numbers 24:17:

Quote:

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

The fact that the star guided the Magi recalls the "pillar of fire" and "pillar of cloud" that guided the Israelites.

DrJim · 10-22-2006, 07:37 AM

Led by a bottle, more like...

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10-21-2006, 04:00 PM	#24
bajan Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Eastern Caribbean Posts: 45	I'm sorry GakuseiDon but I just don't buy it. Stars do not do this, never have done & never will do. If people thought they did 2000 years ago they were plain wrong. It is really not worth taking this detail too seriously for it is clearly in the realm of supernature. If you want to believe that the visitation of the wise men gave some sort of credence to a royal birth I don't think it is necessary to argue that a star could have stood over a house long enough for these guys to get there.

10-21-2006, 08:55 PM	#25
FEZZFACTOR Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UNITED STATES Posts: 41	After they had heard the king, they set went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. ~ Matt.2:9 This "star" was not a supernova or a three planet conjuction--nay, both theories avoid the fact that supernovas and a conjuction of planets are terrible guide-stars. The three wise-men were no doubt Hebrews who chose not to return to their homeland after Cyrus allowed them to return to Judea. The star described in Scripture is moving and then stops over the place where Jesus was born. Such a star is an ancient description of what moderns call a UFO-sighting--but its not a material UFO, its the glory of God or a company of angels.

10-21-2006, 09:27 PM	#26
bajan Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Eastern Caribbean Posts: 45	Well I must admit I hadn't thought of that one. But how about a firefly that got stuck on the chimney?

10-22-2006, 07:37 AM	#30
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	Led by a bottle, more like...

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