IamJoseph

Can you provide historical proof for anything whatsoever in the Gospels - any person [except Paul, proven via non-Gospel evidence], events, a trial, anything you like?

Vinnie

I think the way "historical proof" is used on this forum is a bit of an oxymoron at times. At least you mention examples that you feel would qualify though (e.g. trial, events).

Vinnie

steve_bnk

I believe Aesop's Fables were actulay true, animals could speak and reason.

Prove I am wrong, prove god did not temporerily imbue animals with speech for the purpose of teaching Aesop moral principles, after all consider the serpent in the Garden Of Eden.

I believe the Homeric tales and Beowulf actualy happened, both can be traced to historical characters and places.

There is more hostorcial evidence for characters on which ancient fiction may have been based then the person of Jesus Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf

'..Nineteenth-century archeological evidence may confirm elements of the Beowulf story. Eadgils was buried at Uppsala, according to Snorri Sturluson..'

http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy2.html

EWe ask for evidense when Chrstians presume to disdpnse morslity bsed on the boble that has included wars, buring opposition at the stake, sand over here opressing minority gays.

As long as Chrtistianity stands withinh the bounds of Jeffersonian democracy and does not attempt to force its biblical interpetions on the rest of us through law, personaly have no issue and you can believe what you want.

A debit on a proof of faith healing.

http://news.aol.com/article/father-p...-help%2F496034

IamJoseph

There is no equavalising or similarities in the examples given. Clearly, the Eden story is a majestic metaphor which is set before the advent of life on this planet, the text clarifying it is vested in another realm and not posed as an historical event. Its majestic aspect is it reflects humanity's future with stunning accuracy, namely we will face temptation every step of the way and never be satisfied with our lot no matter what is given us.

In contrast, miracles are fine, as long as it is not gven as historical and used as charges and accusations which would commit mass murder. IMHO, a charge of murder and other such villifications, cannot be made on the premise of beleif, and if it cannot be proven as historical - the penalty must be reversed on the false accuser. Like the laws of gravity - the judiciary, moral and ethical laws are universal constants, applying in all realms - they cannot be fullfiled away by those who lie.

steve_bnk

The comparison is valid.

The Garden OF Eden tale is a tragedy, the hero Adam dies after being corrupted by a woman and loses eternal life on earth. The fall of Adam fell on all humnas who followed, if you are a Christian.

The late Joseph Campbel showed that all myths are essentaily the same, about the same humn experinces and problems. Doesn't matter if it is Adam and Eve, Ulysses, John Wayne as cowboy hero, Star Wars, or Rambo. The tales and journies are essentialy the same.

Star Wars is essentilay the American cowboy adventure with space ships.

If the commonality were not true, we would not still be interpeting the bible from a secular perspective as well as living vicariously through Star Wars adventures.

Some years back Bill Moyers had a group of relgioius and secular peolpe pick apart Genesis. There are discernable psychologies that can be framed in modern terms that can be seen in the book and its tales.

I believe the Buddhist psychologies have all been mapped into the terminlgy of modern psychology.

IamJoseph

Not so. The Eden story predates life. In this realm the Hebrew laws apply: "Only the soul that sinneth it shall pay - the son shall not pay for the father nor the mother for the daughters". If this is not accepted by any belief - they are wrong - check any judiciary court if in doubt.

The Eden story is also vindicated: humans begat supreme knowledge, but not everlasting life. The story also says that its not the sin but how one acts after the sin is what counts - thus Adam and Eve were not destroyed, not even when murder was commited.There was no fall - this is not measured by overwhelming temptation, as was Eve subjected to - that no human could withstand ignoring everlasting life is a given.




No contest here. Belief in a creator is an inherent factor with all life. Also, the most easily exploitable where divine emperors and divine man are involved - this is not possible with a generic, indefinable and indescribable Creator who applies equal justice for all. In fact, this is taboo for dictators and liers, evidenced by numerous ancient wars, persecutions and exiles. While Moses confronted the Pharoah who claimed to be divine - none confronted Rome's divine emperors but the Jews, alone and single handedly. And Rome lost this war.

Vinnie

I have no interest in proving you wrong. Live long and prosper in your beliefs. Why do you find the need to argue against those who think there was a historical Jesus?

Vinnie

IamJoseph

This is legitimate when terrible charges are made which culminated in mass murder. Here, the onus falls on those who never demanded proof!

steve_bnk

Your bio says one of your interests is humor, this is hunor/paradoy along with being a serious question to the Christians.

One of the foundations of their beliefs in the literal interpretation of the whole bible is the fact there are archealogical amd historicai support for aspects of the Jewish history, we do not doubt the existance of the ancient Jews. howvere those points of corroboration do not serve as a prood of god or any supernatural occurences in the bible as claimed.

Actualy by comparison to the mid-east culture and conflict of today I believe there was likley an historiucal Jesus as I have agued with other non belivers on other threads. However my belief is based on culture, human dynamics, and politics and has no arhealogical or factual basis.

Considering the continuing movements by Christians in the USA to move towards a theorcracy and occurences such as

http://news.aol.com/article/father-p...-help%2F496034

along with groups like the fundamantlist Mormans who trade in young girls as wives, I feel it is important that those of who do not believe resist and question relgion at least on an intelectual level.

Keep in mind that this organized open criticism of Chrtianity would not have been possible in the 50s. Religion held sway.

In return I'd ask you why do you post herer?

Vinnie

So in your own words you are saving America by attempting to prove that Jesus did not exist to a small subset of the population on the internet?

Fair enough.

Vinnie