Kapyong

Gday,

The synoptic gospels directly reflect ancient Christian myth of Jesus as a magical god-man (among a few other things).


All of the myths of a magical god-man seem to be based on a stories and myths of a magical god-man.


Therefore, the myth of Jesus was based on a stories and myths of a magical God-man.



Kapyong

aa5874

ApostateAbe's argument does not make any sense.

The synoptic GOSPELS do NOT contain the HERESY that Jesus was just a man.

ApostateAbe NEED to understand that he cannot use the synoptic GOSPELS to propagate HERESIES that are NOT found in the GOSPELS.

For ApostateAbe to make any sense at all he MUST find some other source for his doomsday MAN.

It makes ZERO sense for one to USE the NON-HERETICAL writings of the Church to PROMOTE Heresies.

In the NON-HERETICAL synoptic Gospels Jesus was the Child of a GHOST and a woman, and a GOOD NEWS preacher. See Matthew 1.18-20, Luke 1.34-35, Matthew 4.23 and Mark 1.15 .

ApostateAbe NEEDS to go FIND a history book for his DOOMSDAY MAN if he wants to make any sense.

Kapyong

Gday,

Woot !

Jesus appeared to hundreds of persons at one time,
but
Krishna had sex with hundreds of girls at the same time ! (Now there's a god-man with, um, balls :-)

The myth doesn't specify if he has hundreds of penii though - maybe that's the reason for his popularity amongst Indian women ?


K.

ApostateAbe

Hi, Kapyong, good of you to join us. If it were true that "All of the myths of a spiritual god-man seem to be based on a stories and myths of a spiritual god-man," then I think your satirical argument would actually carry a heckuva lot of weight. However, we know from history and the modern day that such a statement plainly isn't true. We have a bundle of examples that are at least somewhat analogous to what Jesus would have been. The Emperor Vespasian had miracles attributed to him. The Prophet Muhammad had miracles attributed to him. And we do, in fact, have examples of "myths of a spiritual god-man" that are based on actual human beings.

1. Sathya Sai Baba
2. Haile Selassie
3. Da Free John
4. Adi Da
5. Michael Menahem Gottlieb

And, wouldn't you know it, all of these people are cult leaders (though not necessarily doomsday cult leaders).

If you have a point to make in the future, I suggest non-satire. It makes it easier to understand what your point really is, though of course it implicitly requires some responsibility to defend it.

ApostateAbe

Thanks for hanging in there with me, gurugeorge. There are a lot of points there, and I don't want the debate to balloon exponentially like what happened with spin, so I think maybe focusing on a few points is better.

You say, "The apocalyptic stuff is part of the Christ myth, but it seems to be interwoven clumsily."

I don't know if it matters so much to my argument one way or the other whether or not the apocalyptic stuff is interwoven with the rest of the myth clumsily (myth is myth, and my argument only assumes myths), but maybe it would provide a model that explains the evidence better in spite of breaking the seeming pattern per my own argument. So, I would object that the apocalyptic stuff is not interwoven clumsily into the Christ myth, and it is in fact central to the myths. It is a consistent theme of the gospel accounts, and it is even a theme of the Pauline writings. What evidence do you take to indicate that it is a clumsy interweaving?

Toto

I've looked at your doomsday cult leaders, and it would take more time than I have now to go through them all. But there are a few points worth noting:

Joseph Smith (LDS church)
Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses)
Jim Jones (Jonestown)
David Koresh (Branch Davidians)

were all varieties of Christians. So while there was a human cult leader, the cult actually worshipped someone else, or took its doctrine from some supernatural being. I don't think you can actually use these to support the idea that Jesus was most likely human. It may be that a human cult leader was critical at the start of Christianity, but that cult leader need not have been Jesus or any other wandering Palestinian wisdom teacher/crackpot.

You also have the problem that Christianity is part of our culture, including its end of time fantasies. Modern cult leaders have seen how the end of time ideas have a hold on people, and use that to their advantage. That doesn't tell us much about the first century.

Kapyong

Gday,

It carries just as much weight as your original claim. You simply assumed he was a doomsday cult leader. Then pointed out similarities with other doomsday cult leaders, as if that somehow magically proved Jesus WAS one.

But where is your evidence that he actually WAS ?

It's just like me assuming he was a magical god-man, and showing similarities with other magical god-man.

Why do your similarities with doomsday cult leaders outweigh the similarities with magical god-men ?

"Would have been" ?
"Would have been" - if what?
If - he WAS a doomsday cult leader.

But you haven't established that - you just assumed it.


Mythical Hercules had miracles attributed to him. Mythical Osiris had miracles attributed to him.


And we do, in fact, have examples of mythical magical god-men based on legends and myths.


Ok, I'm sorry you couldn't understand me. I'll make it more clear in future.

To recap -
your argument simply ASSUMES that Jesus was a doomsday cult leader, then points out some similarities with other doomsday cult leaders, and pretends this shows he WAS a doomsday cult leader.

It's a false argument, because it works just the other way -
I could argue Jesus was a mythical magical god-man, then points out some similarities with other mythical magical god-man, and then insist this shows he WAS a mythical magical god-man.


Kapyong

hjalti

I noticed that good ol' Do wasn't on the list, a.k.a Marshall Applewhite, famous for leading the Heaven's Gate away team.

This seems to be the same, creepy guy.

ApostateAbe

Cult members would tend to "worship" the transcending figure that they take to be the highest authority, typically God. But, the principle of "worship" would not be the relevant sociological principle, in my opinion. The relevant sociological principle would be follow, as in: who or what controls the will of the cult members? If a cult leader convinces his or her followers that God is speaking and acting through him or her or otherwise has exclusive access to transcendent knowledge, then of course the cult leader has about as much power over the cult members as if they believed he or she was actually God, regardless of who they "worship." It is very unlikely that Jesus himself convinced his followers that he was God (Jesus as God was a later gentile development), and the first Christian cult members would have worshiped God, not Jesus. But of course they would hang on to every word of Jesus, because he was God's prophet.

The list of doomsday cult leaders I gave were cross-religious and cross-cultural, which I think speaks strongly to a common mentality that has existed from the dawn of civilization. But, maybe Christianity really did start the whole trend. If Christianity started the whole worldwide 2000-year trend of belief in the imminent doomsday, then it means that the beginning of Christianity was still part of that same trend, and we simply extend the pattern to that beginning point. If we come across 1000 coins in a line, and the last 999 coins are dimes, but we don't know about the very first coin, then we can still conclude based on the pattern that it was probably a dime.

I went looking for historical evidence of doomsday apocalypticism that most certainly preceded Christianity. The book of Daniel of course would be apocalyptic, mostly concerned with the destruction of cities and empires, though it does have prophecies concerning an unspecific "time of the end" or "end of days', and the death and destruction is predicted for "many."

(Daniel 2:44) Daniel answered the king, ‘No wise men, enchanters, magicians, or diviners can show to the king the mystery that the king is asking, but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has disclosed to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen at the end of days.

(Daniel 11:25-45) At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him. But the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. He shall advance against countries and pass through like a flood. He shall come into the beautiful land, and tens of thousands shall fall victim, but Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites shall escape from his power. He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the riches of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall follow in his train. But reports from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to bring ruin and complete destruction to many. He shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with no one to help him.

Go to this link to see a list of passages in Daniel concerning the "time of the end."

Here is a Zoroastrian text, though it may have too much potential for Christian influence.

7th century CE, The Bundahishn ("Creation"), or Knowledge from the Zand, 30:17-23, at http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mi...shn/bund29.htm

17.
Among his producers of the renovation of the universe, those righteous men of whom it is written that they are living, fifteen men and fifteen damsels, will come to the assistance of Soshyant. 18. As Gochihr falls in the celestial sphere from a moon-beam on to the earth, the distress of the earth becomes such-like as that of a sheep when a wolf falls upon it. 19. Afterwards, the fire and halo melt the metal of Shahrewar, in the hills and mountains, and it remains on this earth like a river. 20. Then all men will pass into that melted metal and will become pure; when one is righteous, then it seems to him just as though he walks continually in warm milk; but when wicked, then it seems to him in such manner as though, in the world, he walks continually in melted metal.
21.
Afterwards, with the greatest affection, all men come together, father and son and brother and friend ask one another thus: 'Where has it been these many years, and what was the judgment upon thy soul? hast thou been righteous or wicked?' 22. The first soul the body sees, it inquires of it with those words (guft). 23. All men become of one voice and administer loud praise to Ohrmazd and the archangels.

Here is a non-Christian doomsday Jewish text that may have been inspired by Christianity.

70 CE to 150 CE, 2 Baruch 25, at http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseude...a/2Baruch.html

And He answered and said unto me: 'You too shall be preserved till that time till that sign which the Most High will work for the inhabitants of the earth in the end of days. 2 This therefore shall be the sign. 3 When a stupor shall seize the inhabitants of the earth, and they shall fall into many tribulations, and again when they shall fall into great torments. And it will come to pass when they say in their thoughts by reason of their much tribulation: "The Mighty 'One doth no longer remember the earth"--yes, it will come to pass when they abandon hope, that the time will then awake.'

Here is an doomsday Hindu text that almost certainly wasn't inspired by Christianity.

100 BCE to 500 CE, Vishnu Purana 1.3, at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp037.htm

a Bráhma day, that is, a day of Brahmá; the term (Bráhma) being the derivative form. At the end of this day a dissolution of the universe occurs, when all the three worlds, earth, and the regions of space, are consumed with fire. The dwellers of Maharloka (the region inhabited by the saints who survive the world), distressed by the heat, repair then to Janaloka (the region of holy men after their decease). When the-three worlds are but one mighty ocean, Brahmá, who is one with Náráyan?a, satiate with the demolition of the universe, sleeps upon his serpent-bed--contemplated, the lotus born, by the ascetic inhabitants of the Janaloka--for a night of equal duration with his day; at the close of which he creates anew. Of such days and nights is a year of Brahmá composed; and a hundred such years constitute his whole life 7. One Parárddha 8, or half his existence, has expired, terminating with the Mahá Kalpa 9 called Pádma. The Kalpa (or day of Brahmá) termed Váráha is the first of the second period of Brahmá's existence.

These examples are not necessarily examples of doomsday cults, though I think they do at least demonstrate a strong tendency of doomsday beliefs. I think it would be improbable to propose that Christianity was the first cult to really tap into that.

Sheshbazzar

Interesting thread. Doherty's view is very much in line with my thinking on the subject. And spin's added input here is right on target in supplementing it with documented evidences of non-Christian and pre-Christian apocalyptic thought and expression within the various sects of Jewish society.
Acknowledging that, I wish to bring in a couple of more elements into the mix.
Within Judaism, the OT Joshua, the successor of Moses was a National 'hero' figure. The one who 'defeated the famous kings' and almost single handedly united the people into one nation. But because of how the Torah presented and what was spoken of him, he by the texts, became representative of much more than just a dead earthly ruler. He was esteemed as companion of the Elohim. I'll quote a few verses that indicate this.
suggesting a continuing presence with YHWH, even beyond Moses, and a special status above all others.
Specially blessed and commissioned by Moses himself, in obedience to the command of YHWH.
Joshua the Prophet like Moses by Divine decree.
Joshua/Jesus The pre-Christian sin bearer responsible to answer for the sins of his people (I understand that there is a difference of opinion as to whom that final 'him' refers to, its not a new debate.) Joshua as commander-in-chief was able to act as the גאל 'ga'al' avenger and redeemer and/or arrange for the rescue and deliverance of any of his kinsmen, with authority to pardon whatever or whomever he would)
This Joshua died at the age of 110 leaving a huge legacy.
Kind of a 'King Arthur cum Paul Bunion' of his age. Making theJordan stand still like a wall, and the sun stand stii in the heavens, (all he need was a blue ox )
By the time of Zechariah Joshua/Jesus was turned into a 'type' figure of the future 'anointed' priest/king ruler as is presented in Zechariah 3
A prototypical messiah/priest/king that would rule the earth and bring peace.

Then into this ancient mix of expectations throw in the influences of Hellenism and the subsequent production of the LXX which for Greek readers presented the name form Ἰησοῦ Iēsous (Jesus) (spin is much better informed as to whatever Greek variants exist.) and the Greek term for 'anointed' or messiah is χριστὸς 'christos' (see for example The LXX rendering of Leviticus 4:5 where 'anointed' is in the Greek language χριστὸς 'christos')
Thus it seems to me that all the pieces were well in place for an emergent Jewish messianic cult figure known as Ἰησοῦ χριστὸς "Iēsous christos" as early as 300 BC (the language adoption naturally well preceeding the written LXX translation)
All it would have needed is centuries of midrashing to build a up a body of heroic Joshua/Jesus miraculous 'claims', 'deeds' and 'sayings' (proto-christian 'sayings' which could have been cribbed from anywhere, and Q type documents incorporating Hellenic and Zoroastrian hellfire torment and dualistic concepts)
All of which post 70 AD could be collectively edited into the various forms known as The Gospels.
I tend to think that the Pauline christology was of an earlier and entirely Jewish origin, but taken over, edited, interpolated, and hugely expanded upon by the faction that eventually became orthodox Christianity.
And Revelation originated as a Jewish and fiercely ANTI-Christian polemic that was crudely mutilated and cobbled into an ersatz 'Christian' book.

All of this of course lands me squarely in the Mythicist camp.

Just my thoughts guys, please try to resist drawing and quartering me.



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