Steven Avery

Iasion, I am interested in your response to my question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus Hi Iasion, ...much later than what ?

Thanks.

Steven Avery

Yes.
"The ending of G.Mark... is missing from the original."

Shalom,
Steven Avery

dzim77

To repeat, the trinity is not an idea that comes from one single verse, but it is a doctrine formed from many verses throughout the NT (and OT).

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on the passages in the NT that state that...
1. God is one (there is one God)
2. The Father is God
3. Jesus is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
...so, the Father, Son and Spirit are three persons yet one God.


John 1 is one such passage. It says that Jesus is God and that Jesus and God are one.

In this passage the Word is referring to Jesus.... Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was God. God and Jesus are one. This has everything to do with the doctrine of trinity.

Again, God the One and Only is referring to Jesus the Son. John is saying that Jesus is God. I thought that was obvious.

I anticipate next you will ask me to prove that the Word was really Jesus. So, here's John 1:14-18.

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known."


Here we see that... The Word became flesh and lived as a human. John (the author) was an eyewitness to his glory. The Word and the One and Only are the same. John the Baptist testified concerning him. He is full of grace and truth. He is Jesus Christ

For a more extensive summary of the trinity texts, try this link http://www.equip.org/free/DT160.htm

Have you read the NT?

greyline

How come the OT characters like Moses and Abraham, and the Jews, had/have no concept at all of the "trinity" nature of God? It seems like rather a fundamental thing that God forgot to tell them.

dzim77

Some say the trinity can be found in the OT. For example...

God is one - Deut 4:35
The Son - Psalm 2
The Holy Spirit - Genesis 1:2; Psalm 139:7

But the fullness of this concept was not revealed by God until the NT. There is an idea referred to as 'progressive revelation' that says that God chose to reveal himself in more detail progressively as redemptive history unfolded. He reveals enough of himself so that we can know him sufficiently.

Keep in mind that the word "Trinity" is not necessarily a word or term that came to us divinely... it is merely a term (albeit a very important one) that theologians developed to help understand and describe God as he is revealed in the Bible.

Iasion

Greetings,

Fullest?
I think you mean "most full of faith".
His page is full of "possibly"s and preaching.

Why didn't you respond to this page?
http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

Which has numerous citations from Bibles and scholars - such as this quote from Ehrman :

"Today we know that the last twelve verses of the Gospel according to Mark (xvi. 9-20) are absent from the oldest Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian manuscripts, and that in other manuscripts asterisks or obeli mark the verses as doubtful or spurious."

What is your response to these scholars?


Yes.


Which early centuries exactly?
Would you like to give your explanation of why the passage is MISSING from the early MSS and citations? This is the key point, you keep ignoring it.



Pardon?
It is missing from various MSS, some early, and some late - what is your point here?


If YOU believe there is crucial evidence omitted, then YOU cite it. So far all you have done is criticise and preach.


Strong?
To some faithful believers maybe.
But even many modern Bibles disagree.

Why do you believe everything Jim Knapp says?
But dismiss scholars like Ehrman?


Iasion

Iasion

Much later than the early MSS.

No early Greek MSS has this passage. The first Greek MSS with it only appeared in the time of Erasmus - that's about a MILLENIUM and a half later than the early exemplars. (Of course there were earlier Latin MSS which had this passage.)


Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

So,
You take 3 items from the Bible and declare them a trinity.

This method can be used to prove ANY three entities are a trinity, or that any four are a quaternary etc.

Do you really not see the problem?

This passage was a later addition to the NT - don't you think that is a problem?

So, the ONLY reason I don't agree with you is because I haven't read the NT?

So, if I DID read the NT, I would agree with you?

Because - everyone who reads the NT agrees with you?
Do you really and truly believe that?


Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

"The ending of G.Mark... is missing from the original."

Sorry.
Should say "missing from the earliest MSS and citations", like I said in various places.

Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

Yup - by the NT.

Not by Jesus,
nor Paul, nor Peter.

Nor the earliest epistles writers.
Nor the Gospels.

No mention of the Trinity until it was added to the NT centuries after the time of Jesus.

Don't you think that is a problem?

Iasion