Jagella

OK, I admit it—I’m a pro wrestling fan. I know it’s “fake,�? but who cares when it’s entertaining? Kurt Angle, a prominent wrestler who is currently with the WWE and an Olympic gold medalist, explains that pro wrestlers are “tremendous performers.�? Considering that Angle is in reality an exemplary athlete, I can say that that’s good enough for me.

One of these “tremendous performers,�? Eddie Guerrero, died a few days ago. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing Eddie’s antics both inside and outside of the wrestling ring for the last few years. He was always entertaining, and he seemed to be a genuinely nice guy. You can imagine how shocked and saddened I was when I first heard of his death. The WWE is lessened as a result of his dying, and I will miss him.

Needless to say, Eddie’s family, friends, and his fellow wrestlers will miss him as well. On Monday Night RAW I watched several of the other wrestlers go on camera to speak to the television audience about how much they loved Eddie and how bereaved they were about his passing. These huge, powerful men, without exception, broke down in tears over the loss of their comrade. Chris Benoit seemed especially grieved, and it was all I could do to keep from joining Chris as he wept bitterly.

Two of the other wrestlers, Shawn Michaels and Rey Mysterio, mentioned that Eddie had been a born-again Christian. They stated that they were Christians as well and that they knew that Eddie was in “a better place.�? Obviously these men were looking to their Christian beliefs for comfort in the face of the death of their friend. Like many people, they seemed to derive some comfort from their belief in heaven, and it made their mourning perhaps a bit more bearable.

While watching these faces wet with tears and hearing the professions of faith in the face of tragedy, I had to ask myself some very important questions: As a skeptic and a person who realizes that belief in life after death has no basis in reality, what can I say to people who are banking on their religious beliefs and who look to these beliefs that somehow, someday they will be reunited with loved ones who have died? Is it cruel to go online and tell Christians that their beliefs are bunk and that there’s no hope that they can cheat death?

One way to deal with such questions is to realize that truth is truth and that no amount of faith or wishful thinking can change the reality of death. Eddie Guerrero, for example, is dead and gone. He’ll never return as the vibrant, living being we all remember him as. Even Eddie’s Bible, if he realized it or not, has some passages that would support the knowledge that death is the end. In Ecclesiastes 9:10 we read:

Another way to approach the issue of sowing doubt in a religious believer who looks to some celestial paradise is recognizing the fact that along with the many people who may derive solace in their belief in heaven, you also have many of us who have been terrorized with the Christian belief in hell. Christianity’s tenets regarding life after death are very much a double-edged sword. I cannot understand how any civilized person could believe in the Christian hell and still say it’s good to believe in it. When I was a Christian I was haunted by the belief that many of the people I knew might someday roast in those fires “created for the Devil and his angels.�? To me, I’d say it’s far more preferable to simply recognize that death is the end rather than play the Christian game of heaven and hell.

In closing, I’d like to reiterate that although many Christians derive comfort from their beliefs, such a fact in no way invalidates the need to tell them the truth. I know well these beliefs and the anger that pours from the believer against any person who might cast doubts on those beliefs. I’ve mentioned numerous times in my debates here at Apologetics how I’ve seen this anger from other members. I suppose it is the same anger that insulates the mind of the Christian from the clearest facts and the most straightforward logic that discredits those beliefs. I say let’s all grow up and accept life for what it is. In spite of the fact that life is short and temporary, or perhaps because of it, it is precious and to be cherished. Hence, being a skeptic in no way diminishes the sanctity of life—it glorifies human life as what’s most important to all of us.

Jagella

newtype_alpha

Damn I'm out of touch. I didn't even know Eddie was dead.:huh:

seebs

Consider, if you will, an alternative universe in which someone posts a story explaining how an atheist died, and his atheist friends were talking about how glad they were that he was no longer suffering, and someone "helpfully" informed them that, in fact, he was suffering very much, because this person "realized" that all atheists go to Hell.

In the absence of proof (which none of us seem to have), the word "realize" is just a wishful interpretation of "believe". But, perhaps more importantly... I do not think such behavior would be appropriate. Even if we did know for sure what the truth is, I think denying people comfort in a time of loss simply cruel.

But when your argument proposes behavior identical to that of Mr. Phelps ("tell someone who is grieving that their loved one is less happy than they suppose"), I think the argument must be flawed.

Lilyofthevalley

I didn't expect to see a post on Eddie Guerrero on this board - but I was glad Jagella brought it up. Reason: My son is very deeply shocked that this wrestler has died. So are his friends - and so am I actually. I 'knew' Guerrero through my son's love of WWE. What a waste of life - and he did seem a genuinely nice guy, as the OP has said.

My son, not brought up in any organised religion, reveres these wrestling men. Shawn Michael's tribute to Guerrero obviously hit home because my son said to me on going to bed, 'Americans seem to talk about God a lot.' He went on: 'HBK said something about the "king of kings". What is that?'

Shame on me! Ex-Christians might understand how my heart melted at my son's distress and ignorance of Christianity - a religion I was brought up in. So I told him that what HBK meant was that there are kings and queens in this world, as we know, but Jesus is thought to be so great that he is the king of those kings. He understood this immediately. No discussion needed. HBK had hit home.

I knew my son needed to derive comfort from the words of his heroes. Part of the manliness that I think he derives from WWE (scoff all you like) was able to include a man's tribute to his friend - and to his God as well. So - good on the likes of Shawn Michael. His 'witness' has had an effect on kids who don't really know where he's coming from.

Never would I do or say anything to besmirch such an influence. 'If you don't accept the kingdom of heaven like a child, you will never enter therein...'

Jagella

Obviously, I disagree. That death is the end should be quite evident to anybody who’s seen the remains of a dead person just a few years after he or she has died. To say that the dead person is somehow still alive is every bit as ridiculous as saying that an automobile turned into a heap of scrap metal is somehow still drivable. If the rotted remains of a person’s body is not evidence that he or she is definitely gone, then could somebody please tell me what would convince them that he or she is gone?

I agree, and I’m not trying to deny anybody anything. But we must also consider the fact that not everybody is comforted by Christian myths about any alleged afterlife. Like I mentioned before, many people have been terrorized—in some cases to the point of insanity—by belief in the Christian hell. So again, I believe it’s best to face reality and accept our losses. If people insist on believing in silly myths to comfort themselves in times of grief, then they may do so. They should, however, be sensitive to those of us who are offended by these myths.

Robert Ingersoll, while debating a Christian, was asked about the supposed cruelty of denying a person the comfort of belief in heaven after the death of a loved one. Ingersoll answered by asking the Christian what he or she would say if the person who died had not been a Christian. Would he tell the grieving mother of a dead child that the dead child was burning in hell? Would that be the “dagger you would thrust into her heart�??

Jagella

seebs

That's rather the point; there is no way to answer this question definitively.

As a general rule, if something you think is "obvious" from casual observation of things most people have seen is not believed by most people, it's probably not all that obvious.

Perhaps, but on the other hand, it seems to me the best thing to do would be to be kind to the people who are grieving regardless and leave the debates about which "obvious" things are reality, and which are not, to times when people are not overwrought.

And Mr. Phelps answers this the same way you do.

I think you're both wrong, because both of you are taking a personal opinion you can't substantiate as a basis for hurting someone who is grieving.

Jehanne

I have never heard of “Eddie�? until today, but I am, nevertheless, sorry that he has died, and my condolences go out to his family and friends. But, as you say, reality is what it is and the superficial comforts of some hollow fantasy will never change reality, and that reality is that Eddie has died, but his memory will live on!