Ray Moscow

As far as I remember, this is the only clue we have from John as to Jesus' age near his death.

There is obviously a lot of uncertainty from the other gospels. Matthew and Luke's birth narratives are at least 10 years apart, although Luke says that Jesus was "about 30" at the his baptism.

Other than that, it's anybody's guess I suppose.

Ray

Solo

The crossreference is to John 2:20, but otherwise I think Chili has it right this time.

In Jn 8:27-8:59 the Jews argue that Jesus has a demon, i.e. his claim to divine origin is a product of insane mind. John's Jesus deflects the charge - as it was the custom among the early Christians since Paul - by denying his glory is self-validated. The awareness of the external perception of themselves as insane was a powerful counter-stroke for the early Jesus worshippers. Jesus knows the Father; his persecutors do not. He is the true manifestation of God, they are poor devil's creatures.

The Abrahamic reference and Jesus' age here fulfils two functions I think: one, it is set up by the Jews in the argument as symbol of ancestral traditions and piety. Two, the age of fifty (with xref. to 2:20) relates to a milestone at which (in John's understanding of the Jewish milieu) one acquires enough earthly wisdom to have competent judgment in otherworldly matters.

Jiri

JoeWallack

JW:
In memory of the recently departed Jeffrey Gibson, let's continue our due diligence here:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Jo...ter=8&verse=57

"8:57 εἶπον οὖν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι πρὸς αὐτόν πεντήκοντα ἔτη οὔπω ἔχεις καὶ Ἀβραὰμ ἑώρακας

The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (ASV)"

And The Metz:

"8.57 ἑώρακας {B}

A few witnesses (P75 א* 0124 syrs copsa, bo ms, ach2) read ἑώρακ�*ν σε (“… has Abraham seen you?”). This is doubtless a scribal assimilation of the Jews’ question to Jesus’ previous statement (“Abraham … [saw] my day,” ver. 56). The reading chosen for the text, besides having much stronger manuscript attestation (P66 אc A Bc (B* W Θ 28 ἑώρακες) C D K L X Δ �* Ψ f 1 f 13 33 565 700 892 many others), is more fitting on the part of the Jews, who, assuming the superiority of Abraham (ver. 53), would naturally represent Jesus as seeing Abraham rather than Abraham as seeing Jesus.

{B} {B} The letter {B} indicates that the text is almost certain."

Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. 1994. A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition; a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) . United Bible Societies: London; New York


JW:
In my opinion the Textual evidence favors ἑώρακέν σε "has (Abraham) seen you?". Note that Vaticanus (B) is a variation for the Text. As Metzger points out, "has Abraham seen you?" is consistent with the Text, even though Metzger makes the wrong conclusion in order to try and Save the Text.

Therefore, I think "The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and has Abraham seen you?" is original. I don't see though how it would effect an understanding of the offending phrase "not yet fifty years old". Maybe Doug13 can think of something.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Amaleq13

Nope.

Is Metzger's opinion about the different emphasis represented by the phrases "...and hast thou seen Abraham?" and "...has (Abraham) seen you?" based on something in the original language?

If not, it seems rather subjective to declare that the former displays greater respect for Abraham than the latter.

Timetospend

Lots of interesting comments, but could it be simply mean that Jesus was not an old man? For example, the "retirement" age for Levites was this age:
Num 8:24-25
24 This applies to the Levites: from twenty-five years old and upward they shall begin to do duty in the service of the tent of meeting; 25 and from the age of fifty years they shall retire from the duty of the service and serve no more.
NRSV

Not that I think that 50 is old.

Thanks,

Chili

Because it is not easy to work out your own salvation or fear and trembling would not be part of it. Once fifty and not done with this 'race,' as Paul put it, makes 'patient endurance songs' easier to sing.

Chili

Thanks Jiri, but you don't think that Chili would lie, do you?

JoeWallack

JW:
As Dennis said to SpongeBob, "Perhaps I've said too much." But hey, I thought you could never understand what I'm trying to say anyway.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/John_8

8:57 "The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

A key question for this Thread is to what extent do we take the offending line above as Literal or Figurative? The value of 8:57 as evidence that "John's" Jesus was close to fifty is proportional to the Literal degree of the line.

In General, "Mark" and "John" are the Reformers and "Matthew" and "Luke" are the Conservatives. "Mark" created the original Gospel narrative and "Matthew" and "Luke" conServed it. "John" than, reformed the narrative because "Mark's" Jesus was not the right Type of Jesus. In the Synoptics Jesus' words have Independent standing. They have meaning by themselves without having to be said by Jesus. In "John" Jesus' words are Dependent on being said by Jesus. They only have have value because Jesus said them. Truth here is whatever Jesus said.

One technique used by the Reformers is Ironic Contrast to illustrate the difference between the old Negative and the new Positive. This is what "John" has done in Chapter 8 creating a contrast between "The Jews" who are Literal/Physical and Jesus who is Figurative/Spiritual. Note here that The Jews usually make Literal statements here:

"8:38 I speak the things which I have seen with [my] Father: and ye also do the things which ye heard from [your] father.

8:39 They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham.
[Literal]

Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham`s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.

8:41 Ye do the works of your father.

They said unto him, We were not born of fornication;
[Literal]

we have one Father, [even] God.

8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.

8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.

8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

8:45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.

8:46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?

8:47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

8:48 The Jews answered and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a demon?
[Literal]

8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and ye dishonor me.

8:50 But I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death.

8:52 The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death.
[Literal]

8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself?
[Literal]

8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;

8:55 and ye have not known him: but I know him; and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be like unto you, a liar: but I know him, and keep his word.

8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.

8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[Literal]

8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him:
[Physical]

but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple."


JW:
"The Jews" do make some Figurative type statements above but generally the Contrast is as I described at the start, "The Jews" here are Literal/Physical in Contrast to Jesus' Figurative/Spiritual. Therefore, the Textual Technique here favors "not yet fifty years old" as having a Literal meaning here.

I Am not aware of any evidence that "not yet fifty years old" was an idiom for old age in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. More on that later.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

angelo

The Da Vinci Code claims he died in very old age in France. Yes I know it's crap. But then so are the gospels.