lpetrich

That seems rather obvious to me, given how unsupportable their contentions are. The oldest Xian writings are Paul's letters, and they feature Jesus Christ's crucifixion rather prominently.

So we can dismiss this as yet another attempt to rewrite history to make the early Xians in the likeness of the authors. Xenophanes would have understood; he was the first to recognize that people tend to make gods in their likeness.

The Merneptah Victory Stele mentions several places outside of Egypt, like Ashkelon and Gezer, so that is not evidence that the Israelies were in Egypt.

Which ones?

What gives you that idea?

Prior to the Dual Monarchy, the Bible's "history" is doubtful -- at best.

One can find plenty of factual details in Greek mythology, but does that mean that the Greek gods exist?

What "large chunks"?

What do you mean by an Arab "race"? An Arab ethnicity?

From Arab,

In any case, the Arabic language is distinct enough from other Semitic languages to suggest a divergence several centuries before they were first written down, meaning that some Arab or proto-Arab ethnicity likely goes that far back. Here's a classification from Semitic Languages:

Judging from Proto-Semitic language, the ancestral Semitic language was likely spoken between 4800 and 4500 BCE -- it had a word for donkey but no words for wheeled vehicles.

IamJoseph

The vowel is missing, and the R alphebet has the vowel which connects to the precedent sound, which is difficult to write down.

False. The only war which occured around this time was with Babylon backed Assyria and Israel [586 BCE]. There were no Arabs at this time:

Myths, Hypotheses and Facts - Concerning the Origin of Peoples: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Arabs.htm


There was no Arabic writings till 400 CE.


2,500 years ago. After the Greeks invaded Arabia, a group formed, and the Greeks dubbed them with the name Arab - only because Arabia was a generic term of this region. The new Arab group invaded the Coptics of Egypt and took over their land.


Why don't you evidence any Arabic writings of the period you ascribe - an easy ask considering this peoples were never displaced from the region!? :wave:

IamJoseph

Yes it is - else it reads as a superflous statement. The verse also describes a war with Israel, and this is backed by Hebrew writings which cannot be subject to retrospection - it is 100% contemporary. The mention of Ashkelon, seen numerously in the Hebrew bible, is an affirmation the Hebrew is authentic and historical, while you pose it as a negative.

The Philistines, Moabites, Medianites - including their kings, wars and geographical locations.

Hint: name another ancient writings which have been backed by archeology more than the Hebrew bible?

At best!? Better, you check up on some archeology - there are 1st temple period relics popping out almost monthly.

Gods do not exist, and any descriptions and definitions are myth. This is what Monotheism says and is vindicated today.

The entire life and geneology of Abraham - not available anywhere else.

An identifiable, distinct group of peoples, as with races, nationalities, religions, etc., and displaying a continuous history of relics and events.

The notorious Wiki is a bad site for anything to do with Israel. This site calls Judea 30 CE as Palestine. Need one say more!?

You will find that those listed before hebrew do not contain at least 3 alphabetical sounds [specially the 'V'] - thus the Hebrew indicates an independent source. You will also find that those langages do not possess continueing aphabetical writings as with the Hebrew. Explain this anomoly?

lpetrich

Which Hebrew? Point me to an explicit mention of Merneptah. Yes, I want to see the name "Merneptah".

No, it shows that Merneptah's Victory Stele describes triumphs in Canaan, meaning that Egypt had far too strong a hold on the reason for the Exodus to have happened.

Yawn. I'd like to see some independent sources, not centuries-old quasi-history and pseudo-history.

Herodotus, Thucydides, Strabo, Polybius, Livy, Suetonius, Tacitus, ... especially if treated together in Bible fashion.

(The Bible being at best doubtful before the Dual Monarchy...)
You have not described what connection those relics have with the Bible -- if any.

(factual details in Greek mythology...)
So you have an atheist position about the gods of every religion but yours?

Greek mythology is full of references to real places: Mt. Olympus, Crete, Athens, Argos, Mycenae, Pylos, Knossos, Troy, Nemea, ...

Why close one's mind to all that evidence of their truth and to the existence of the Olympians?

He lived well before when the Bible's reliable history begins, and there are no outside sources on him, so we may conclude that he is as mythological as Romulus or Hercules.

(Wikipedia...)
So what?

You have not demonstrated that that is the case, and you have not demonstrated the relevance of that claim to the classification.

Joan of Bark

Even rabbi's don't believe in the exodus.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...on-exodus.html

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/...-exodus-story/

http://judaism.about.com/od/torah/f/moses_proof.htm

IamJoseph

This says only that the exodus miracles cannot be proven. It does not refer to the historicity of the Hebrews in Egypt being mythical.


"suggest"? - is that a scientific term or backed with any proof at all? Amazingly, a court historican is given the greatest credit for writings the Hebrew bible - a feat greater than splitting the sea, which appears would also include the Psalms - this contains numerous mentions of Moses, and alligns with the entire narratives of the Hebrew bible - down to every name and datings.

Fact is, there is no proof of Moses or the miracles listed there - but there is more 'evidences' of Moses than any figure in history anywhere near that period. Some 15 years ago, there was no proof of David or Solomon, and the myth word was loudly touted by so-called scholars - these have never recovered from their shame! Its correct to face upto it - the Hebrew bible is different from other scriptures, in that it contains millions of historical data pervasively within its words, verses and paragraphs. Even when doubting its veracity and calling it myth - its mathematical criteria alone makes any person writing it greater than Newton and Einstein. The Hebrews were clever - but not that clever.

Joan of Bark

History is never backed by "proof", only evidence. Proof is a mathematical concept only, and has no meaning in social sciences. "Suggest" is used to show that it cannot be ascertained with 100% certainty. Besides, you are the one who claimed in an earlier post (#6) that:

Obviously, there is contemporary disputation of the exodus. Have you read The Bible Unearthed? A book written by archaeologists? Perhaps you should write to the authors and point out their errors.

Rubbish! It doesn't say that at all. Wolpe questions the historicity of the exodus, as do Finkelstein and Silberman. Archaelogists wouldn't even waste their time arguing over miracle stories, since miracles are not part of historical studies.

From the article in question:
Now, there may have been a handful of semitic-speaking people who escaped slavery in Egypt and migrated to Palestine, carrying with them some fantastic stories that were adopted by settlers in the area, but that's hardly the same as a mass exodus with a conquest of Canaan.

lpetrich

Writing a book is a greater feat that splitting a sea? IamJoseph, don't make me laugh.

There are oodles of inscriptions and other documents from the Middle East at about that time.

Which ones?

And do you have any outside evidence of King David other than the Tel Dan inscription?

Some legitimate history, some dubious history, and some pseudohistory.

WHAT mathematical criteria?

IamJoseph, I've been seeing lots and lots of Bible worship from you -- and not much else.

J-D

I don't know what you mean by referring to a missing vowel, as ancient Hebrew was written without vowels, but in any case the fact remains that you have failed to show two different Hebrew words. You have only shown one Hebrew word.I don't know what you mean by 'around this time': I referred to a war in 853 BCE, and 586 BCE is not 'around' 853 BCE. There were certainly many wars in many different places between 853 BCE and 586 BCE and I can give more details to substantiate this. (There was not, however, any war involving Assyria in 586 BCE, as Assyria had been completely overthrown well before then.)

When you say it's 'false' that 'the Assyrian king Shalmaneser III erected a commemorative inscription in which he mentioned Arabs, under a king called Gindibu, as part of the enemy army he fought against in 853 BCE', what grounds do you have for saying so? Do you think that I just made that up? Do you think that the various texts which mention it are all fabrications? Here are a few sources available on the Web which mention this war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalmaneser_III
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...rian_king.aspx
http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_34.pdf
http://www.bible-history.com/black-o...r-assyria.htmlThat does not look like a reliable source to me, but even if it were, nowhere in it does it refer to a time when there were no Arabs.You keep repeating this, but you have given no details. If you think the first Arabic writings date to 400 CE, you should be able to say what those first Arabic writings were.

In any case, even if it were true that there were no Arabic writings before 400 CE, it would not follow that there were no Arabs before 400 CE. The fact that there were Arabs before 400 CE is sufficiently demonstrated by references to them in writings in other languages.I didn't ask you about 2500 years ago, I asked you about three thousand years ago. In either case, you haven't answered the question: who, if not Arabs, do you suppose was living in Arabia then?The Greeks never invaded Arabia--and certainly not 2500 years ago.Wha do you mean 'a group formed'? What sort of group? How was it formed? By whom?It is true that the Arabs conquered Egypt--they also conquered many other countries. But that has no relevance to the question of the origin of the Arabs.I don't know what you mean by 'the period I ascribe'--I didn't 'ascribe' any period.

J-D

I don't know what you mean by 'superfluous'. One might say that the whole inscription is 'superfluous'. It's just bragging on Merneptah's part, and one might think that his bragging serves no purpose and hence is 'superfluous'. However, given that the purpose is to brag, there is nothing superfluous about adding to the list of people he says he vanquished. They don't have to have been in Egypt and have left it to give him bragging rights for his alleged victories.I don't know of any contemporary Hebrew writings which refer to this war and you have not identified any.The fact that some of the things in the Hebrew Bible are true (for example, that there was a city called Ashkelon) is insufficient grounds for concluding that everything in the Hebrew Bible is true.If there was an Israelite Exodus from Egypt, the Philistines were not around at the time.Some parts of the Hebrew Bible have been archaeologically corroborated. Others haven't.I have not yet heard of any which corroborate the kingdom of David and Solomon. From my readings it appears that the broad outline of the account of the post-Solomonic divided kingdoms is accepted by most historians. About David and Solomon some are more doubtful and some less. But for the pre-Davidic Biblical accounts there is no independent corroboration.Different alphabets have different letters (for example, there's no 'J' in the Hebrew alphabet). I don't see the relevance of the observation.