Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 06-14-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Fundamentalist do NOT claim that the Gospels is entirely false.

I'm aware of that, but what's your point? I never said they said.

aa5874 · 06-14-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Fundamentalist do NOT claim that the Gospels is entirely false.

I'm aware of that, but what's your point? I never said they said.

But don't you believe that Jesus was fundamentally human? And aren't your views on Jesus fundamentally similar to many Christians, that Jesus was ENTIRELY real?

You come across as a Christian, based on your beliefs.

Doug Shaver · 06-15-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But don't you believe that Jesus was fundamentally human?

I believe he was human if he existed, but I doubt that he existed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And aren't your views on Jesus fundamentally similar to many Christians, that Jesus was ENTIRELY real?

No, they're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You come across as a Christian, based on your beliefs.

You haven't a clue what my beliefs are.

Loomis · 06-15-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Location seems a bit iffy, outside the city in public view was the trend.

The trail of Jesus basically violated all of the customs, laws and procedures for trials at the time ...

Regarding the location: Do you remember my hypothesis? I think the earliest stories of Jesus’ execution were based on the laws in Deuteronomy 21. I think that in the earliest stories Jesus was stoned to death and then his dead body was hung on a tree.

Check out the gate in Hebrews 13:12

"So Jesus also suffered outside the gate..."

Compare the gate and everything else you know against Deuteronomy 21:18~22:

If a person has a stubborn, rebellious son who pays no attention to his father or mother, and they discipline him to no avail, his father and mother must seize him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his city. They must declare to the elders of his city, “Our son is stubborn and rebellious and pays no attention to what we say – he is a glutton and drunkard.” Then all the men of his city must stone him to death. In this way you will purge out wickedness from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid.

If a person commits a sin punishable by death and is executed, and you hang the corpse on a tree

See?

You don’t need a historical tradition of Romans crucifying people outside the city.

All you need is Deuteronomy 21:18.

mens_sana · 06-15-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

You don’t need a historical tradition of Romans crucifying people outside the city.

All you need is Deuteronomy 21:18.

I don't think you need Deuteronomy. The Romans were pretty well-known for selecting crucifixion sites outside cities. The idea was a very public exhibition of punishment/deterrence. Favorite sites were busy road crossings and along major highways. Martin Hengel's Crucifixion In the Ancient World and the Folly of the Message of the Cross (or via: amazon.co.uk) is a nice rundown on the practice, as are accounts of the Spartacus rebellion.

Loomis · 06-15-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens_sana

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

You don’t need a historical tradition of Romans crucifying people outside the city.

All you need is Deuteronomy 21:18.

I don't think you need Deuteronomy. The Romans were pretty well-known for selecting crucifixion sites outside cities. The idea was a very public exhibition of punishment/deterrence. Favorite sites were busy road crossings and along major highways. Martin Hengel's Crucifixion In the Ancient World and the Folly of the Message of the Cross (or via: amazon.co.uk) is a nice rundown on the practice, as are accounts of the Spartacus rebellion.

The trouble is that we’ve got Deuteronomy 21:22 whether we want it or not.

Deuteronomy 21:22:

If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree …

Acts 5:30:

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, and hanged on a tree.

Do you see the similarity?

According to Acts Jesus was not crucified. He was killed and his body was hung on a tree. Just like the tradition described in Deuteronomy 21. Somehow this story got turned around/ rewritten/ replaced with a story about a crucifixion.

The author of Hebrews 13:12 is using the “fact” that Jesus was killed outside of the gate as proof that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy. He is talking about the gate in Deuteronomy 21:19.

Now do you see what I mean?

spamandham · 06-15-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

According to Acts Jesus was not crucified. He was killed and his body was hung on a tree. Just like the tradition described in Deuteronomy 21.

...also supporting the hanging idea are Gal. 3:13, and the Bablyonian Talmud, Baraitha Bab. Sanhedrin 43a.

aa5874 · 06-16-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

According to Acts Jesus was not crucified. He was killed and his body was hung on a tree. Just like the tradition described in Deuteronomy 21.

...also supporting the hanging idea are Gal. 3:13, and the Bablyonian Talmud, Baraitha Bab. Sanhedrin 43a.

I do not know that the Romans used Deuteronomy 21 in the 1st century as a guide or manual for executions.

Now, if the author of Galations supported the "hanging idea", the author of 1 Corinthians supported the "crucifixion idea".

1 Corinthians 1.23

Quote:

But we preach Christ crucified.....

And the same author at the very beginning of Galations 3 also supported the "crucifixion idea":

Galations 3.1

Quote:

O foolish Gations, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you.

Apikorus · 06-16-2008, 10:16 AM

According to Mishnah Sanhedrin there were four mechanisms of capital punishment under rabbinic law: (1) stoning, (2) burning, (3) decapitation, and (4) strangulation (which is not hanging -- read the delightful description of strangulation in pereq 6 of Mishnah Sanhedrin).

mens_sana · 06-16-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

The trouble is that we’ve got Deuteronomy 21:22 whether we want it or not.

Deuteronomy 21:22:

If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree …

Acts 5:30:

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, and hanged on a tree.

Do you see the similarity?

According to Acts Jesus was not crucified. He was killed and his body was hung on a tree. Just like the tradition described in Deuteronomy 21. Somehow this story got turned around/ rewritten/ replaced with a story about a crucifixion.

The author of Hebrews 13:12 is using the “fact” that Jesus was killed outside of the gate as proof that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy. He is talking about the gate in Deuteronomy 21:19.

Now do you see what I mean?

Yes, I see what you mean.

Now, can you see the author Acts using Dt 21.22 as authenticating background for his crucified Messiah — by saying that his Messiah was hung upon a tree? Then there is Paul's reference to Jesus' crucifixion, which antedates Acts, along with references by Mark and probably Matthew. There is also Crossan's "Cross Gospel." These all tell against the kind of rewriting suggested.

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06-16-2008, 10:16 AM	#39
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	According to Mishnah Sanhedrin there were four mechanisms of capital punishment under rabbinic law: (1) stoning, (2) burning, (3) decapitation, and (4) strangulation (which is not hanging -- read the delightful description of strangulation in pereq 6 of Mishnah Sanhedrin).

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