Jehanne

Wikipedia, in spite of some of the "bad press" surrounding it, is pretty good in terms of its accuracy, according to some recent research conducted by Nature magazine. Here's the reference that I link to above:

"St.Athanasius, Against the Heathen, Ch.27 [5], Ch 36 [6], in A SELECT LIBRARY OF THE NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, Series II, Vol IV, ed. Philip Schaff, D.D.,LL.D., American reprint of the Edinburgh edition (1978), W.B.Eerdmans Publishing Co.,Grand Rapids, MI."

Isn't not at my local library! Sorry. Perhaps someone else has it.

lee_merrill

I sure don't see it, nor does there seem to be any mention of "float" or "floating" etc. in any of these homilies on the statutes.

Jehanne

Here's one reference:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...tom-jews6.html

Just do a search on "earth."

Roger Pearse

Is that the supposed reference? Is there nothing more specific? The quote may be real, or not. But surely we would prefer to know?

In my experience one can *never* rely on online quotes -- particularly ones without a reference. This is not merely due to malice, although there is enough of that. In my experience malice usually seems to express itself by misrepresentation rather than invention. It's mainly because of the existence online of material from Joseph Wheless Forgery in Christianity, which is mostly misleading, and sometimes bogus. Also and worse is Robert Taylor Diegesis, most of which seem completely imaginary. If one reads his entry in the DNB, IIRC Taylor did time in prison for financial fraud and for breach of promise to marry, so was rather a rascal all round. So there is a steady drip-drip of misinformation. Who benefits from this I do not know.

I would make it a general rule that *any* reference to any statement by the fathers should give the work and a proper reference, and ideally a link to the work online. If this is unknown, one should not assert it as fact. Any unreferenced quote is nearly always bogus, as the 'Mithras' quote that Andrew and I have been chasing is already showing.

Of course we can all be misled, in good faith, and indeed most repetitions are by people who have been deceived, rather than intend to deceive. On the other hand I must say that I rather take against the sort of chap who repeats 'quotes' of that kind, but when challenged refuses to find out whether they are true. Not one of those who chants 'Mithras Mithras' ever looked up Vermaseren, for instance.

NB: The work in question, if any, must be On the statues (sp.), surely? -- These are the homilies he preached in Antioch after the citizens had expressed their dislike of government policies by throwing down the statues of the emperor. The latter threatened to massacre them in retaliation.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

lee_merrill

Well, which sentence did you mean? I really don't see a statement describing the earth floating or such, or any discussion at all about the shape or surroundings of the earth.

Jehanne

(7) But the Jew totally rejects this testimony. He refuses to admit what Christ said. What does the Jew say? "The man who said this is my foe. I crucified him. so how am I to accept his testimony?" But this is the marvel of it. You Jews did crucify him. But after he died on the cross, he then destroyed your city; it was then that he dispersed your people; it was then that he scattered your nation over the face of the earth. In doing this, he teaches us that he is risen, alive, and in heaven.

(3) Certainly we do hear her story told in all the churches. Consuls have stood listening to it, and generals, too; men, women, the renowned, the distinguished, the famous ones in every city. Wherever in the world you may go, everyone respectfully listens to the story of her good service; her action is known in every corner of the earth.

(7) Tell me, now. How do you explain this? Who brought this about? Is it not the work of the God to whom this service was paid? Is it not God who has spread the story of her deed to every corner of the earth?

(9) Comparison makes facts especially clear. You Jews make this comparison, then, and learn how the truth has prevailed. What deceiver has gotten for himself so many churches all over the world, what rogue extended his worship to the ends of the earth, what imposter has every man bowing down before him, and this in the face of ten thousand obstacles? No one did. It is clear, then, that Christ was not a deceiver: he has saved us, he confers blessings upon us, he takes care of us, he protects our lives.

(8) Daniel wrote that he had seen these events in the plain at Susa; he also made it clear that God explained to him what he had seen in the vision. God said that the ram signified the empire of the Persians and Medes, and the horns, those who would hold royal power. He further said that the last horn signified that there would come a king who would surpass those others in wealth and glory. God then explained that the goat would be a ruler from among the Greeks who would twice clash with the Persian king, defeat him in battle, and take over all his empire. The first large horn on the goat's forehead signified the first king. After this fell off, the growth of the four horns and the turning of each of these to the four regions of the earth was a sign that, after the death of the first king, who had neither sons nor family, his successors would divide the empire among them and would rule the world for many years.

(6) A further indication deals with those who are going to offer this sacrifice. He did not say "in Israel," but "among the nations." He did not want you to think that the worship given in this sacrifice would be confined to one, two, or three cities; therefore, he did not simply say "everywhere," but from the rising of the sun, even to its setting. By these words he showed that every corner of the earth seen by the sun will receive the message of the gospel. He called it a "pure offering," as opposed to the old sacrifice, which was impure. And it was-not by its own nature but because of the disposition and intention of those who offered it. This is why the Lord said: "Your incense is loathsome to me."

Jehanne

Here are some more references:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA662.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf...#P1825_1561225
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.xix.xi.html

Dreadnought

While others pursue the actual quotes from medieval religiosos I took a look at what appears to be a main source, perhaps the main source for the article. There's a link in note 25 to this piece.
(my bold) the author: Jeffrey_Burton_Russell And while he may be right about his claims about medieval cosmology there is no doubt that Dr Russel here has an axe to grind.

And you can look at the other side of the story from atheists here:Ethicalatheist & flat earth myth. Having only skimmed through this, they generally seem to agree that the flat earth was a much less widespread view in medieval times than commonly thought today, but that it did have it's proponents, particularly in the earliest and darkest days.

Jehanne

Don't forget, though, that the Medieval Church based its theology upon the Nicene and pre-Nicene fathers! Aquinas did teach a spherical Earth but he, and, indeed, the Church, never condemned the teachings of the "flat-Earthers."

Trubble

Allow me to delurk for my first post to this forum. And please forgive me if I'm missing something, but I don't understand the confusion over the Chrysostom quote. The reference is clearly given in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article, which I followed to the relevant passage in a few seconds: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.xix.xi.html, Homily 9, paragraph 7:

"All men, then, must admit that it is the course of nature for water to be supported on the earth, and not the earth on the waters. … When therefore thou beholdest not a small pebble, but the whole earth borne upon the waters, and not submerged, admire the power of Him who wrought these marvellous things in a supernatural manner! And whence does this appear, that the earth is borne upon the waters? The prophet declares this when he says, “He hath founded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods.” And again: “To him who hath founded the earth upon the waters.” What sayest thou? The water is not able to support a small pebble on its surface, and yet bears up the earth, great as it is; and mountains, and hills, and cities, and plants, and men, and brutes; and it is not submerged! What do I say? Is not submerged? How comes it to pass, that since the water has been in close contact with it below, during so long a period, it has not been dissolved, and the whole of it become mud? … yet so great a mass as the earth hath remained such a length of time lying upon the waters, without being either submerged, or dissolved, and destroyed!"

Seems pretty clear to me. A flat earth floating on "the waters".