Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dirge · 01-03-2008, 06:22 PM

It's fairly obvious some parts of the NT were written shortly after the Crucifixtion. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

I
"If you do do not believe me go ask one of them they are still around."

Rather more difficult to refute back then, when you had living witnesses to the event at Calvary.

storytime · 01-03-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Well, I'm still trying to figure out why a non-Jewish people would have adopted a Jewish god and a messiah that excluded them.

What do you know about the "God fearers"? These were gentiles who, apparently, liked the moral structure and attending synagogue but weren't willing to become complete converts (eg circumcision). These folk were the perfect audience for Paul's gospel and the core of his membership if not the entirety.

IOW, what you describe is not a "problem" specific to Christianity. These folks existed prior to that set of beliefs.

In those days were Gentiles allowed to attend synagogue with Jews? If so, why then was it prohibited for a Jew to even speak to a Gentile as reported by Peter to Cornelius?

When you say "these folks existed prior to that set of beliefs" are you referring to Jews who followed the teaching about a Messiah that was to come? Were these Jews called "Christ followers" before the birth of Jesus, the "anointed one"?

storytime · 01-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Crucifiction....

What is the source of this persistently repeated misspelling of this word? Is it that chapter that Robert Price jokingly and cleverly called The Cruci-Fiction? Or is it more widespread than that?

(Not picking on you in particular, storytime; lots of people on this board seem to spell it that way, and some may even be doing it on purpose.)

Ben.

Just accustomed to the "fiction" instead of the "fixation" I suppose.

Rusting Car Bumper · 01-03-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

The Romans tried to stamp out Xianity. The easiest way to stamp out the new religion would be to prove Christ didn't exist.

I'm late to this thread but I want to point two things out.

First, the Romans did not try to stamp out Christianity. That simply isn't true. Persecution against Christians was far far more the exception than the rule. There was, if I recall my Roman history correctly, only a few short periods of sustained official persecution against Christians and that is not to be confused with political coercion.

Second, the question about proving Christ didn't exist is to ask a question through the lens of modernity. Ancients and near ancients didn't think in terms of literalism like we do. The fundamentalist-literalist tradition is a fairly recent invention.

Ancient religious literature is frequently a mix of fact and fiction and mix of intertwining stories borrowing from each other. Was Jesus a real person? Sure there was probably an executed Jewish man about that time who became the basis of it. Did he do and say all the things attributed to him? Almost certainly not. Was there a war or a set of wars which made up the basis of the siege of Troy in Homer's Iliad? Probably Yes. Was it actually the siege of Troy as depicted. Unlikely. Yet these and others persisted and were meaningful.

The point is that literalism didn't carry the same qualitative weight to ancient people.

DC

storytime · 01-03-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Having been raised a Christian allows me to know the Christian mindset of a universal god as understood by all of Christianity. Now being an atheist allows me to stand back and examine the bible story independently.

You really need to re-read the old and new testaments, for no where does it say that God would destroy his people [the Jews] and replace his people with another[Gentiles]. How do you explain that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep in the house of Israel? You do realize this means the 12 tribal sons of Jacob, don't you? Were any Gentiles named as tribes of Israel? Many many people were excluded and for a reason. Maybe you'd like to investigate as to the reason why?

I thought the main concern of the "fathers" in Rome was to prove a corpse was raised from the dead. Isn't this the foundation principle? What good is Christianity without a resurrected Christ figure? What good is Christianity if Christians are not raised from their dead corpses? What happens to the Jewish myth should Matthew 11:5 be taken into account, and the dead are seen as already raised-up while Jesus was still alive? I mean, this is what Jesus told John. So why do Christians not believe it? After all, "it's in the bible".

The claims of Christianity, as you know, should be challenged. Far to long has this bible story gone unchecked.

Try reading Hosea:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=9&version=31

See also:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=6&version=31

And also:

See also Isaiah:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1;&version=31;

There are other examples as well.

As for the understanding of this by the Church fathers:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu...e_03_book1.htm

Quote:

Grant then, dear friend, my request, and labor with rue henceforward in your prayers in my effort to present the Proof of the Gospel from the prophecies extant among the Hebrews from the earliest times. ... I propose to show, by quotations from them, how they forestalled events that came to the light long ages after their time, the actual circumstances of the Saviour's own presentment of the Gospel.... It shall be my task to prove that they saw that which was not present as present, and that which as yet was not in existence as actually existing; and not only this, but that they foretold in writing the events of the future for posterity, so that by their help others can even now know what is coming....

The most ancient Hebrew oracles present all these things definitely about One Who would come in the last times, and Who would undergo such sufferings among men, and they clearly tell the source of their foreknowledge. They bear witness to the Resurrection from the dead of the Being Whom they revealed, His appearance to His disciples, His gift of the Holy Spirit to them, His return to heaven, His establishment as King on His Father's throne and His glorious second Advent yet to be at the consummation of the age. In addition to all this you can hear the wailings and lamentations of each of the prophets, wailing and lamenting characteristically over the calamities which will overtake the Jewish people because of their impiety to Him Who had been foretold. {6} How their kingdom, that had continued from the days of a remote ancestry to their own, would be utterly destroyed after their sin against Christ; how their fathers' Laws would be abrogated, they themselves deprived of their ancient worship, robbed of the independence of their forefathers, and made slaves of their enemies, instead of free men; how their royal metropolis would be burned with fire, their venerable and holy altar undergo the flames and extreme desolation, their city be inhabited no longer by its old possessors but by races of other stock,6 while they would be dispersed among the Gentiles through the whole world, with never a hope of any cessation of evil, or breathing-space from troubles. And it is plain even to the blind, that what they saw and foretold is fulfilled in actual facts from the very day the Jews laid godless hands on Christ, and drew down on themselves the beginning of the train of sorrows.

See also the ending of this section:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

Imposition of the church fathers doesn't make the story any less than what it is - a hyjacking of Judaism and kidnapping of Jesus.

Dirge · 01-03-2008, 08:05 PM

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...976299,00.html
Caiaphas' Cave - TIME

Apparently the high priest at Jesus's trial could have existed.

mens_sana · 01-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...976299,00.html
Caiaphas' Cave - TIME

Apparently the high priest at Jesus's trial could have existed.

It also appears that, despite some forgeries, several people mentioned by Jeremiah have turned up on bullas. The biblical records are not quite the historical disaster some would have us believe, even though a lot of the history was "theological history."

Amaleq13 · 01-03-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

In those days were Gentiles allowed to attend synagogue with Jews?

That is my understanding. There are rules governing the participation of "strangers" in Hebrew Scripture which, for example, say when they can join in passover or when a stranger can be kicked out of the "congregation of Israel".

Quote:

If so, why then was it prohibited for a Jew to even speak to a Gentile as reported by Peter to Cornelius?

I'm not sure what is being referred to in 10:28 (citations are always helpful

) but Cornelius was "one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews" (Acts 10:22). Kinda hard to see how one obtains a good reputation among people who are forbidden to talk to one, isn't it? :huh:

There were exceptions (eg Samaritans) but I think it is clear from Exodus, Leviticus, and Josephus that, in general, Jews not only spoke to gentiles they were willing to accept them into the "congregation of Israel".

Quote:

When you say "these folks existed prior to that set of beliefs" are you referring to Jews...

No, I'm referring to the same group throughout. There were apparently gentiles interested in Judaism and accepted as such at least since Exodus and Leviticus were written.

Josephus refers to Jews in Antioch making "proselytes" of "a great many of the Greeks" (Wars, 7.3.3) and "those that worshipped God" making contributions to the temple from around the world (Ant, 14.7.2).

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-04-2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

It's fairly obvious some parts of the NT were written shortly after the Crucifixtion. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

I
"If you do do not believe me go ask one of them they are still around."

Rather more difficult to refute back then, when you had living witnesses to the event at Calvary.

This was not a reference to alleged witnesses of the crucifixion or a living Jesus but to that mysterious "500" (who are not mentioned anywhere else) who Paul claims his Christ "appeared" to after his death. Paul does not describe the nature of these "appearances," does not distinguish them from his own visionary experiences, does not name any of these people and claims to have gotten his information from Jesus, "not from any man."

So, no, 1 Corinthians 15 does not claim that you can talk to living witnesses of the crucifixion, only (at best) people who might tell you that "saw" some kind of vison of Christ, but even that claim (assuming no interpolation) is only as reliable as the voices in Paul's head.

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-04-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirge

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...976299,00.html
Caiaphas' Cave - TIME

Apparently the high priest at Jesus's trial could have existed.

So what?

Pilate existed too. So did Augustus Caesar. So did the Herods. So did John the Baptist. How does that prove anything about Jesus?

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01-03-2008, 06:22 PM	#91
Dirge Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northwest Washington Posts: 292	It's fairly obvious some parts of the NT were written shortly after the Crucifixtion. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 I "If you do do not believe me go ask one of them they are still around." Rather more difficult to refute back then, when you had living witnesses to the event at Calvary.

01-03-2008, 08:05 PM	#96
Dirge Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northwest Washington Posts: 292	http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...976299,00.html Caiaphas' Cave - TIME Apparently the high priest at Jesus's trial could have existed.

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