Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Scotsguy44 · 11-27-2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsguy44

I put these questions to the maker of the YouTube video and his response was to the effect that it was but satire.

It said that the devil's alibi was that he was partying with friends in Rome. That wasn't enough for you to recognise that it was a joke?

Yes, it is intentionally using modern "age of consent" laws anachronistically. It's also talking about the logistics of how an almighty immutable God impregnated a girl.

You have to remember that the Bible doesn't talk about God having sex at all. If you wanted to reject the whole thing, that would be enough. Of course, if we are looking at the text at all critically we also have to note that the idea that Mary was a virgin clearly originates in a translation error.

I have engaged with the maker of that video in extensive discussion on the xtianity email discussion forum. Although using tongue-in-cheek remarks such as you mention above he is seriously trying to make a point re: manner of the birth of Jesus.

As has been pointed out to you by John Kesler, the claim of the virginity of Mary is not solely based upon the account in Matt, but also that of Luke.

Thanks
Matt

DAZ · 11-27-2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsguy44

1. The video gives the age of Mary as 13-15. What is the source of that information?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infancy Gospel of James

VIII. 1 And her parents gat them down marveling, and praising the Lord God because the child was not turned away backward.
And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as a dove that is nurtured: and she received food from the hand of an angel.

2 And when she was twelve years old, there was a council of the priests, saying: Behold Mary is become twelve years old in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her ? lest she pollute the sanctuary of the Lord. And they said unto the high priest: Thou standest over the altar of the Lord. Enter in and pray concerning her: And whatsoever the Lord shall reveal to thee, that let us do.

3 And the high priest took the vestment with the twelve bells and went in unto the Holy of Holies and prayed concerning her. And lo, an angel of the Lord appeared saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias~ go forth and assemble them that are widowers of the people, and let them bring every man a rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went forth over all the country round about Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all men ran thereto.

IX. 1 And Joseph cast down his adze and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with them. And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed. And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them. But Joseph received the last rod: and lo, a dove came forth of the rod and flew upon the bead of Joseph. And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. 2 And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel. And the priest said unto Joseph: Hear the Lord thy God, and remember what things God did unto Dathan and Abiram and Korah, how the earth clave and they were swallowed up because of their gainsaying. And now fear thou, Joseph, lest it be so in thine house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her to keep her for himself. And Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now do I leave thee in my house, and I go away to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infancy Gospel of James

XII 1 And she made the purple and the scarlet and brought them unto the priest. And the priest blessed her and said: Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name, and thou shalt be blessed among all generations of the earth. 2 And Mary rejoiced and went away unto Elizabeth her kinswoman: and she knocked at the door. And Elizabeth when she heard it cast down the scarlet (al. the wool) and ran to the door and opened it, and when she saw Mary she blessed her and said: Whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come unto me ? for behold that which is in me leaped and blessed thee. And Mary forgat the mysteries which Gabriel the archangel had told her, and she looked up unto the heaven and said: Who am I, Lord, that all the generations of the earth do bless me ? 8 And she abode three months with Elizabeth, and day by day her womb grew: and Mary was afraid and departed unto her house and hid herself from the children of Israel. Now she was sixteen years old when these mysteries came to pass.

Infancy Gospel of James

Doug Shaver · 11-28-2011, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

If you analyse a joke then clearly you are going to find it doesn't add up. That's precisely the point of the gag from the outset.

Not having seen the video, I was not aware that this was a joke. I have seen the God-raped-Mary thesis presented numerous times in skeptic forums, and until now it was always in dead earnest, so far as I could tell.

Sheshbazzar · 11-28-2011, 11:50 AM

Personally, I have never read the gospel Holy Spirit 'overshadowing' miraculous conception story as being a reference to any form of physical sexual congress.
There was no physical male present, no penetration, no torn hymen, and no sperm was deposited. There was no rape committed. (even within the STORY)
Mary remained as unsullied and carnally inexperienced as she was before the miracle of The Conception took place, which was entirely within her womb.(Luke 1:31)

No man had ever carnally 'known' her. And the manner of her impregnation was a miraculous biological occurrence accomplished by Divine manipulation of those elements and potentials that were already present within Mary's own body.
There was no sperm or DNA material donated by either man or haElohim (G-d)

And no I do not believe the story, but I do believe that this is the manner of The Conception that the writers were intending to convey, and is consistent with how the christian faith has always interpreted these texts.

We don't need to make ourselves look needlessly stupid by deliberately distorting the content of the tale.

Tom Sawyer · 11-28-2011, 11:57 AM

Everybody seems to be ignoring the Biblical passages where Mary talks about how surprising it was that the Holy Ghost that impregnated her looked an awful lot like the gardener.

Keith&Co. · 11-29-2011, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on the story, Mary was "engaged" to Josephus and happily consented to have a Ghost Child..

But how important is that?

Where i work, i can't convince my administrative assistant that it would be better for the company, or her career, if she slept with the boss. Especially if that boss is me.
Even if she's apparently happy to do it, and apparently happy to get the promotion or raise or expense account, even if the company and the investors benefit from my improved performance, it's still sexual harrassment. It's a bad thing that i have done, no matter how apparently willing or not.
Her apparent willingness may be fear of the consequences if she says no.

And i only have the power of hiring and firing and a few pay adjustments.

If the supreme being shows up and says 'I'm agonna father the Messiah on you, if that's okay with you,' what chutzpah would it take to say no?

Sheshbazzar · 11-29-2011, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Everybody seems to be ignoring the Biblical passages where Mary talks about how surprising it was that the Holy Ghost that impregnated her looked an awful lot like the gardener.

Where do you find these Biblical passages?

Scotsguy44 · 11-29-2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on the story, Mary was "engaged" to Josephus and happily consented to have a Ghost Child..

But how important is that?

Where i work, i can't convince my administrative assistant that it would be better for the company, or her career, if she slept with the boss. Especially if that boss is me.
Even if she's apparently happy to do it, and apparently happy to get the promotion or raise or expense account, even if the company and the investors benefit from my improved performance, it's still sexual harrassment. It's a bad thing that i have done, no matter how apparently willing or not.
Her apparent willingness may be fear of the consequences if she says no.

And i only have the power of hiring and firing and a few pay adjustments.

If the supreme being shows up and says 'I'm agonna father the Messiah on you, if that's okay with you,' what chutzpah would it take to say no?

So what then is your view if you add to her explicit consent that we are not provided with the context of God's choice of her (e.g. was it in response to prayers of Mary to be the mother of the Messiah who would free Israel from the yoke of Rome?) and her song of jubilation following her conception (hardly of a manner of one who had been sexually harrassed or coerced or was at all unhappy about her situation?).

Thanks
Matt

Chili · 11-29-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotsguy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on the story, Mary was "engaged" to Josephus and happily consented to have a Ghost Child..

But how important is that?

Where i work, i can't convince my administrative assistant that it would be better for the company, or her career, if she slept with the boss. Especially if that boss is me.
Even if she's apparently happy to do it, and apparently happy to get the promotion or raise or expense account, even if the company and the investors benefit from my improved performance, it's still sexual harrassment. It's a bad thing that i have done, no matter how apparently willing or not.
Her apparent willingness may be fear of the consequences if she says no.

And i only have the power of hiring and firing and a few pay adjustments.

If the supreme being shows up and says 'I'm agonna father the Messiah on you, if that's okay with you,' what chutzpah would it take to say no?

So what then is your view if you add to her explicit consent that we are not provided with the context of God's choice of her (e.g. was it in response to prayers of Mary to be the mother of the Messiah who would free Israel from the yoke of Rome?) and her song of jubilation following her conception (hardly of a manner of one who had been sexually harrassed or coerced or was at all unhappy about her situation?).

Thanks
Matt

The Annuciation itself was prompted by the answered prayers of Zechariah in Lk 1:13 that rendered him speechless and even while speechless went through the same motions to show the inner determination of the Jew called Joseph who so earnestly was looking for the reign of God, and hence it was that Elizabeth conceived to now hand over her reproach in the TOK of Joseph [to the animal man] and thus was 'beyond theology' which in turn is why the 'young woman' found favor with God and was set free from the TOL to be reborn in his TOK as man-child now also in the image of God.

Note that Joseph (just as we all are) is 'son of God' by creation and here now 'as the fruit of his [own] womb' also becomes 'son of man' . . . but not 'human' by any strech of the imagination and therefore not Jew either, but nevertheless was emergent out of Judaism finding favor with God through the [persistent] determination of Judaism within, and hence was a Nazarite by nature from 'that little big city of God' that runs deep within him, of which he was mindful and in good standing with his own soul and so a true Nazarite this child will be.

The above can so explain why Nathan [in whom no guile was to be seen] was found under a Yew tree in material John for which the prologue was missing in material Mark and hence up shit-creek he goes instead of down the river of life, to say that eternal life belongs to the mythology itself and the best we can ever do is to become partakers in that life, and so be the continuity of infinity that itself is without a beginning and without end, (in the begining earth [already] was).

A helpful reduction here is to see humans as temporal with both a beginning and an end, but with the potential to become eternal and so with a beginning but without end wherein they now are the continuity of infinity . . . wherefore then they necessarily must be infallible as the manifestation of God on earth but since they are a product of religion and sure to die a second death, religion itself must be infallible as the owner of eternal live as we just saw in the above and so dominion is theirs and hence Christendomain is where religion is in function for Life itself now spelled with a capital L.

Tom Sawyer · 11-29-2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Everybody seems to be ignoring the Biblical passages where Mary talks about how surprising it was that the Holy Ghost that impregnated her looked an awful lot like the gardener.

Where do you find these Biblical passages?

It's the Book of Luke:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 6:3

3. And Lo, the Holy Spirit didst enter the bedchamber of the Most Holy Virgin Mary
4. Then Mary, when gazing upon the Divine Countenance didst say "Jose, have you finished trimming the hedges in the back yard? Mine father is having guests over for dinner and may want to have them sit out by the pool"
5. The Holy Spirit didst then respond, "Tis not Jose who has come upon you, but the Lord thy God. And this isn't a hoe in my pocket, I'm just really happy to see you"

The narrative cuts off at that point, but later Mary ends up pregnant and Jose gets fired, so read what you will into that.

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11-28-2011, 11:50 AM	#34
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Personally, I have never read the gospel Holy Spirit 'overshadowing' miraculous conception story as being a reference to any form of physical sexual congress. There was no physical male present, no penetration, no torn hymen, and no sperm was deposited. There was no rape committed. (even within the STORY) Mary remained as unsullied and carnally inexperienced as she was before the miracle of The Conception took place, which was entirely within her womb.(Luke 1:31) No man had ever carnally 'known' her. And the manner of her impregnation was a miraculous biological occurrence accomplished by Divine manipulation of those elements and potentials that were already present within Mary's own body. There was no sperm or DNA material donated by either man or haElohim (G-d) And no I do not believe the story, but I do believe that this is the manner of The Conception that the writers were intending to convey, and is consistent with how the christian faith has always interpreted these texts. We don't need to make ourselves look needlessly stupid by deliberately distorting the content of the tale.

11-28-2011, 11:57 AM	#35
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Everybody seems to be ignoring the Biblical passages where Mary talks about how surprising it was that the Holy Ghost that impregnated her looked an awful lot like the gardener.

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