Jack the Bodiless

When a Christian makes a claim that the Bible is supernaturally-inspired because of its "unbelievably accurate" prophecies: then he has the burden of proof, and must demonstrate that the prophecy really does refer (in advance) to a specific event that could not have been foreseen. So far, no such attempt has been successful.

When a skeptic cites a failed prophecy to an inerrantist as evidence of Biblical error, he likewise has the burden of proof: he must refute any attempt by the apologist to come up with a workable version (and some apologists are desperately imaginative here).

Many claimed prophecies are unsuitable for either purpose because their success or failure cannot be demonstrated: such as the prophecy that the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. We don't know whether Jesus did this or not: it's unverifiable and unfalsifiable. However, that doesn't stop Christian apologists from padding out lists of "successful prophecies" with such examples.

vsop44

From the Laughing Jesus by P gandy and T freke page 38

The book of Daniel is a typical example of a genre called " prophecy after the event"
It predicted the fall of Persia at the hand of a greek (Alexander the great) . But the book of Daniel was not written until a century and a half after the death of Alexander the great.
In this genre the appearance is created that a text has uncannily predicted the future , But actually the prophecy has been written centuries after the events , it pretend to predict , have actually happenned . They are meant to impress the readership of the time and give a brand new text an aura of of antiquity and supernatural legitimacy .

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, I do think there are such verifiable prophecies, such as "Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited" (Isa. 13:19-20, Jer. 25:12, Jer. 51:26).

These have been tested, even, more than once, and failed, and you can attempt to rebuild Babylon. At any time, anyone can attempt this, and let's see if it can be done! Quite practical...

Another such prophecy is "there will always be Jewish people" (Jer. 31:35-37; 33:24-26), which I don't recommend trying to overturn, remembering the way this turned out for Hitler & co.

Regards,
Lee

spin

I can't help the fact that you are trapped in this whole christian prophecy smokescreen, Lee.

Just how many ancient cities were never rebuilt? Most of them.

We have a few odd ones, Damascus, Aleppo, but most ancient cities went into rubble out of which they never rose. Israel has numerous such mounds. Mesopotamia. Syria. It's a mind-boggling "prophecy", isn't it Lee?

Wasting your time fruitlessly worrying about whether Babylon will never be rebuilt just stops you from reading the text and what the writer was trying to do with that piece of bile.

Good child of modern capitalism. Packaging the product for sale.

It might seem meaningful for you to hack a "prophecy" out of its context so you can say, "look, see, god said that was the case" and never question your unfounded presuppositions in the process of your text mangling. The only person who benefits from this process is you. You can justify yourself in so doing. Perpetual justification.

What a marvelous "prophecy" that was, just like there'll always be Arabs and Assyrians and Kurds and Egyptians and Greeks and Romans and Chinese and Japanese and Koreans and Iranians and Indians. Lots of populations seem to hang around. Funny that.


spin

Sauron

Pity that you haven't been able to "verify" this prophecy for us. There's currently a 12 page monster thread going on where you've utterly failed to prove that this prophecy came to pass.

• You started out by making claims about rebuilding Babylon, Medes and Persians, the physical state of Babylon after Alexander, Arabs/tents, swamps, etc. You were quite prolific in such claims, seemingly not realizing that "what if" scenarios don't count as evidence.
• And you made all these claims and assertions without really knowing anything about history or archaeology. This made toppling your claims easy, enjoyable and rather routine - as usual.
• In very short time you found yourself in deep water and over your head. You were confronted on your mistakes and informed that unsupported claims would not be accepted.
• So naturally, you tried to restrict the discussion to only one claim - rebuilding Babylon.
• Then you dreamed up this silly "rebuild Babylon" challenge and said muslims and skeptics should go try it.
• The problem is that you couldn't find any muslims who disagreed with the prophecy, or who felt that rebuilding Babylon would sway Christians away from Christianity. Therefore you couldn't provide any rationale why muslims would lift a finger to take up your lame challenge.
• You likewise failed to find any skeptics to do your work for you, for similar reasons.
• Given all that, you tried to move the goalposts and shift the burden of proof onto the skeptics - a frequent tactic of yours, made all the more pathetic by the fact that it never works; yet you continue to try.
• When that didn't work, you tried to restate your position, which would have been fine with all the participants. But in a blatant display of dishonesty, you continued to quote several verses that all contained failed prophetic claims, and try to use them in your argument. But you refuse to address the failures of prophecy they contained.
• In another display of dishonesty, you told us that you had abandoned any claims about what other people think, or the outcomes of such attempts at rebuilding Babylon. But you continue to issue your silly challenge to muslims and skeptics, and try to use that as some kind of arguing point. But it is a challenge predicated upon your assumptions about what muslims & skeptics think, and it implies a certain outcome for any rebuilding attempt. Thus neatly contradicting your statement that you had abandoned such claims.

The rest of your argument amounted to watching you duck questions and repeat your earlier posts almost word-for-word, oblivious to the fact that they had been refuted a dozen times earlier. You seem to think that you can make those nasty, uncomfortable facts go away if you just ignore them and lock yourself inside a logic-proof box. :rolling:

*sigh*

1. As for the claim that rebuilding Babylon failed - well, what we know about history says that:

• Babylon was rebuilt at several times in history;
• therefore there is no motivation for anyone else to try and rebuild it now;
• Babylon did not fall according to the details of the prophecy, so right out of the starting gate this prophecy is a failure

2. You are the one with the affirmative claim for fulfilled prophecy. Don't ask skeptics to rebuild Babylon; it's not our job to do your homework for you. And since the Babylon prophecy failed for 8 or 9 other reason - why bother? It's already dead on arrival. The facts show that the Isaiah prophecy has ALREADY been invalidated by PAST events. That is why nobody should spend a dime to rebuild Babylon: the disproof happened in 539 BCE, when the city peacefully changed hands to the Persians, contrary to prophecy. Multiple other disproofs happened over the following centuries. I wouldn't spend any time or money proving that Paris was the capital of France, either.

3. Of course, lee, if you disagree, then you should take your own advice here: go rebuild Babylon. If you and other christians want to prove to the world that the prophecy is true, then you should take up a collection from among your fellow believers. Start a rebuilding project at Babylon. And when that rebuilding project is divinely and miraculously stopped, you can come back and tell us "I told you so". Put your money where your mouth is, lee.

vsop44

Like the palm reader at the fair , he/she makes so many predictions to so many people , he/she is bound to get a few right .

Johnny Skeptic

Why don't you address the Babylon prophecy in the thread on the Babylon prophecy? Why haven't you replied to my most recent post in that thread? Would you prefer that I repost my most recent post in that thread here? Would you like to start another thread on the Tyre prophecy? I doubt it. Even if you will not start another thread on the Tyre prophecy, I will start a new thread on it and show that even if it came true, divine inspiration is not indicated.

Johnny Skeptic

What is your definition of a Jew?

luminous

Can you give me a link to the Tyre prophecy?

Sauron

Discussion starts here:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...93#post2308393