Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lógos Sokratikós · 08-01-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

In a sense you're right.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit..." (John 6:63)

and again,

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor 2:14)

As one without the Spirit you are at a major disadvantage when it comes to understanding scripture which is why it appears so confusing (but that's not to say that believers don't completely miss the point at times either).

1) Christianity is an eminently missionary religion. The logical conclusion is that conversion would lie in gullibility, since, if the target of conversion would be a keenly rational individual, s/he would very surely go to hell.

2) That is a clear example of a fallacious argument.

3) That is a clear example of double bind: I must believe, pretending that my organ of belief (mind/brain) doesn't tell me it's dog gone fishy. I must lie to myself. Or be dumb. We must play foul with ourselves and tell our brains to play dead. -That is a request to be unethical to our own conscience: "People! Tell your brain to play dead and go to heaven, where you'll get all sorts of goodies, or reject what I preach and go to hell!"

ModernHeretic · 08-01-2006, 07:56 AM

Actually I believe Tacitus stated that Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He doesn't mention the name 'Jesus', nor does he cite any sources IIRC, but still this is an extra-biblical source.

As for prophecy...

Matthew

16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
"He shall reward every man according to his works."

16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Acts
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So, it seems pretty clear that Jesus said that he would come back during the lifetime of at least some of the people who were around at that time, and that in fact the people of that time were supposed to be living in "the last days".

Vivisector · 08-01-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

In a sense you're right ... As one without the Spirit you are at a major disadvantage when it comes to understanding scripture which is why it appears so confusing (but that's not to say that believers don't completely miss the point at times either).

I had intended to accurately reflect a common Christian reaction, even though the acerbic tone of my previous post might have indicated that my doing so was quite by accident.

I'm sure you understand that, what you appear to be saying is, "Believe, and you can understand. If you do not believe, you cannot understand." The only way to understand, then, is to begin believing without understanding. You'll find this a hard - perhaps impossible - sell among many here, because (a) the argument could be used with equal strength by the proponent of any religious belief system, no matter how seemingly irrational, and (b) it strikes many as an inherently bad principle that they do not apply in other areas of their lives.

I'd invite you to consider the view that "documented" prophecies that Christians commonly reference were invariably recognized as such only after the fact - after Christians experienced events of such a nature that they were driven to seek prophetic explanation, for apologetic purposes, or both. The absolutely post hoc nature of prophecy seems perhaps best attested by the utter failure of one of the most explicit prophecies (Jesus's second coming), which has necessitated some of the innovative approaches to interpretation that we see in 2 Peter and that continue today (e.g., single, double, literal and figurative fulfillments).

It's not so much that people like me don't understand, it's precisely because we do understand - we understand that interpretive principles aren't principles at all, but can be applied in so many ways to yield so many results as to be useless - that we're not buying.

V.

Nuwanda · 08-01-2006, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

1) Christianity is an eminently missionary religion. The logical conclusion is that conversion would lie in gullibility, since, if the target of conversion would be a keenly rational individual, s/he would very surely go to hell.

2) That is a clear example of a fallacious argument.

3) That is a clear example of double bind: I must believe, pretending that my organ of belief (mind/brain) doesn't tell me it's dog gone fishy. I must lie to myself. Or be dumb. We must play foul with ourselves and tell our brains to play dead. -That is a request to be unethical to our own conscience: "People! Tell your brain to play dead and go to heaven, where you'll get all sorts of goodies, or reject what I preach and go to hell!"

"Keenly rational individual?" No, I simply said that you are at a disadvantage when attempting to understand a spiritual book with nothing more than human/physical understanding, which any scientist would admit is limited beyond measure. The problem here is that you've already decided that the God and Christ thingy is myth and therefore you discount any thought of spiritual discernment. You believe that your rational is the only source of understanding and that spiritual understanding is illogical. Under those self imposed limitations you are indeed "keenly rational." But understand that scripture is written in such a way as to involve your whole being for real understanding. "Those who have ears to hear let him hear."

Nuwanda · 08-01-2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisector

I had intended to accurately reflect a common Christian reaction, even though the acerbic tone of my previous post might have indicated that my doing so was quite by accident.

I'm sure you understand that, what you appear to be saying is, "Believe, and you can understand. If you do not believe, you cannot understand." The only way to understand, then, is to begin believing without understanding. You'll find this a hard - perhaps impossible - sell among many here, because (a) the argument could be used with equal strength by the proponent of any religious belief system, no matter how seemingly irrational, and (b) it strikes many as an inherently bad principle that they do not apply in other areas of their lives.

I'd invite you to consider the view that "documented" prophecies that Christians commonly reference were invariably recognized as such only after the fact - after Christians experienced events of such a nature that they were driven to seek prophetic explanation, for apologetic purposes, or both. The absolutely post hoc nature of prophecy seems perhaps best attested by the utter failure of one of the most explicit prophecies (Jesus's second coming), which has necessitated some of the innovative approaches to interpretation that we see in 2 Peter and that continue today (e.g., single, double, literal and figurative fulfillments).

It's not so much that people like me don't understand, it's precisely because we do understand - we understand that interpretive principles aren't principles at all, but can be applied in so many ways to yield so many results as to be useless - that we're not buying.

V.

Do you speak in the 1st person plural because you really do represent everyone in this forum?

It's is not a matter of "believe and then understand" it's a matter of realizing that if the claims of the NT are true then you are dealing with a God that is far above your human understanding. At that point, when you start looking to His word for direction (which is what the Bible is for) you need spiritual understand as I have already shown.

It is intellectually dishonest to say "I will believe God once my rational has proven that God is real." There is no proof that God is real and to use such a measure for the athiest platform is to argue from ignorance, which is worse than your charge of post hoc.

Vivisector · 08-01-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Do you speak in the 1st person plural because you really do represent everyone in this forum?

Absolutely not, which is why I said, "People like me." Those unlike me (and perhaps those like me) are more than capable of speaking for themselves, far more articulately than my modest abilities permit.

Quote:

It's is not a matter of "believe and then understand" it's a matter of realizing that if the claims of the NT are true then you are dealing with a God that is far above your human understanding. At that point, when you start looking to His word for direction (which is what the Bible is for) you need spiritual understand as I have already shown.

We're back to the chicken and egg. How does one realize that the claims of the NT are true without understanding? Or are you speaking only of the non-prophetic claims? And if so, which claims are those?

Quote:

It is intellectually dishonest to say "I will believe God once my rational has proven that God is real." There is no proof that God is real and to use such a measure for the athiest platform is to argue from ignorance, which is worse than your charge of post hoc.

Would it be less intellectually dishonest of you to say, "I will believe the Rainbow Serpent once my rational[ity?] has proven that the Rainbow Serpent is real?" You're free to answer my charge of post hoc, if you like.

V.

Lógos Sokratikós · 08-01-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós
1) Christianity is an eminently missionary religion. The logical conclusion is that conversion would lie in gullibility, since, if the target of conversion would be a keenly rational individual, s/he would very surely go to hell.

2) That is a clear example of a fallacious argument.

3) That is a clear example of double bind: I must believe, pretending that my organ of belief (mind/brain) doesn't tell me it's dog gone fishy. I must lie to myself. Or be dumb. We must play foul with ourselves and tell our brains to play dead. -That is a request to be unethical to our own conscience: "People! Tell your brain to play dead and go to heaven, where you'll get all sorts of goodies, or reject what I preach and go to hell!"

"Keenly rational individual?" No, I simply said that you are at a disadvantage when attempting to understand a spiritual book with nothing more than human/physical understanding, which any scientist would admit is limited beyond measure. The problem here is that you've already decided that the God and Christ thingy is myth and therefore you discount any thought of spiritual discernment. You believe that your rational is the only source of understanding and that spiritual understanding is illogical. Under those self imposed limitations you are indeed "keenly rational." But understand that scripture is written in such a way as to involve your whole being for real understanding. "Those who have ears to hear let him hear."

"With nothing more than human/physical understanding"? Then your religion is asking for convert targets (those the missionaries preach to) other-than-human understanding?

You realize what you're proposing?

---
EDITED TO ADD:

I know where you want to get to (but correct me if I'm wrong): to believe you must have something greater than human: God's grace. But to have God's grace you must have faith, and to have faith you must choose to believe.

Do you now realize you are requesting:
1) Suspension of reasoning (i.e. the deadening of the brain, the very firewall that prevents us from getting gulled into the clutches of quack);
2) Superhuman (divine) help, for which you need faith and thus believe (in the first place) to be able to believe/understand to begin with!

voodoomage · 08-01-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

That's why I said that I probably shouldn't have brought it up, not only does it take a lot of study but it also distracted you from the point. My apologies.

I admit that my lack of posts and my short response to your question points towards ignorance in this matter. However, I, like many/most posters in this forum, am very familiar with the study and concepts of biblical prophecy. I am at a disadvantage because I cannot read hebrew or greek, but there have been plenty of folks here on both sides willing to help me out with this matter.

It does take a lot of study, you're right. However, as best I can tell, the point of your post was that because One_Of_Logic does not agree with you, he has no understanding of biblical prophecy. You brought up the concept of multiple fulfillment as one example. I see that as a weak assumption of how to interpret biblical prophecy.

Until you can show me, specifically please, where god specifically mentions interpreting certain scriptures multiple times, your argument is completely without merit.

Sheshbazzar · 08-01-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModernHeretic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I believe Tacitus stated that Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He doesn't mention the name 'Jesus', nor does he cite any sources IIRC, but still this is an extra-biblical source.

As for prophecy...

Matthew

16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
"He shall reward every man according to his works."

16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John
5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Acts
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So, it seems pretty clear that Jesus said that he would come back during the lifetime of at least some of the people who were around at that time, and that in fact the people of that time were supposed to be living in "the last days".

As a believer, I disagree with your interpretation of these verses and events.
From the first time that I ever read these verses, even as a child, I have always understood (most) of these verses to be speaking of events yet to transpire. thus what you are stating is "pretty clear" (to you, a confessed heretic) is not a view or interpretation view ever held by me, or by any majority believers.
Breaking down the presented verses;

Quote:

Matthew
16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There is nothing within this verse that gives any specific information as to WHEN the Son of man shall come.

Quote:

(Matthew)
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke
9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Each of these three verses state essentially the same thing, that "some" of the observers standing there would not taste death till they saw the Son of man coming in power.

Quote:

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Quote:

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."
21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

"When you see these things come to pass" the requirement is for "these things to come to pass" referring to ALL of the predictions of 21:6-30 coming to pass, The generation that sees the complete accomplishment of all of "these things" shall not pass away, till ALL be fulfilled. They shall be the ones to "see The Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory".

Omitted but also relevant to this subject is John 21:20-23

Quote:

20. "Then Peter turning about, saw the disciple whom YAHoshua loved following; which had also leaned on His breast at supper, and said , Rabbi, which is he that betrayed You?
21. Peter seeing him, said to YAHoshua, Rabbi, and what shall this man do?
22. YAHoshua said unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Follow thou Me.
23. Then this saying went around among the Brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet YAHoshua did not say unto him, he shall not die; but,
If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you?"

It is a belief held by many that have given serious study and thought to the matter, that there remain divinely selected and preserved Watchers and Witnesses among us to this day, some never yet having tasted death, and others, such as Lazarus, having tasted death once. (it is appointed that a man die ONCE but after that the Resurrection,(Heb. 9:27) - Lazarus died ONCE and was Resurrected, as were perhaps others.

Quote:

John 11:24 "Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the last day.
25. YAHoshua said unto her, I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE:
He that believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever lives and believes in Me SHALL NOT DIE FOREVER; Believe you this?"

Quote:

John 21:25. "And there are also many other things which YAHoshua did, which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written: Amen"

Amaleq13 · 08-01-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

The problem here is that you've already decided that the God and Christ thingy is myth and therefore you discount any thought of spiritual discernment.

If the individual addressed was Christian prior to becoming an atheist (as the majority of our members are), this assertion is false.

Quote:

You believe that your rational [thought] is the only source of understanding and that spiritual understanding is illogical.

Rational thought is the only reliable source of understanding.

"Spiritual understanding" is an oxymoron and, in reality, nothing but a substitute for actual understanding. Nothing can be understood through faith. Faith allows one to accept or reject notions despite an absence of information. From the perspective of rational thought, that is no different from a guess and you cannot understand anything by guessing.

Quote:

But understand that scripture is written in such a way as to involve your whole being for real understanding. "Those who have ears to hear let him hear."

The above "sounds" like meaningless babble intended to provide a faith-based conclusion with the illusion of intellectual rigor and none of it seems appropriate or relevant to BC&H since it is ultimately nothing but preaching.

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08-01-2006, 07:56 AM	#12
ModernHeretic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 357	Actually I believe Tacitus stated that Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He doesn't mention the name 'Jesus', nor does he cite any sources IIRC, but still this is an extra-biblical source. As for prophecy... Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. "He shall reward every man according to his works." 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: So, it seems pretty clear that Jesus said that he would come back during the lifetime of at least some of the people who were around at that time, and that in fact the people of that time were supposed to be living in "the last days".

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