ralfellis

You are saying this as if I have made this up. However this is the way in which every Mason has pronounced this name for hundreds of years. And it just so happens, of course, that the Masonic pronunciation and meaning dovetails perfectly with the pronunciation and meaning of the name of the chief architect of Pharaoh Psusennes. I rather think that the Masons have this correct.



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Tom Verenna

Someone is in breach of their oath.

spin

I certainly didn't credit you with having made it up. I'm saying that it has no ancient basis. It's not in the bible or apparently any other ancient text. It is worthless.

We aren't talking about a few hundred years. We are dealing with about three thousand years. Old nonsense is still nonsense.

You still haven't provided a scholarly source for this "Heru'm Atif" or "Heru-m-atif". I am waiting to see what lies behind your manipulation here. Source please for this name.

We know what you think. But thinking doesn't make it so. Until you can come up with a competent attempt at evidence, your stuff is just, umm, nonsense.

Toto

Some posts have been split off here and locked for mod team review

ralfellis

<snip>

Do you really think the Masonic oath prevents discussion about the historical identity of Hiram Abif? <snip>

<snip>

<snip>



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outhouse

Why do you use wiki when you want, but ignore it when for the most part it always is against you?

Do you apply this double standard to all your work?



I believe he does, and if not he is working ion it.

Lets worry about you, why do you mention it? what do you have?



Mr Ellis your view of history has no real merit, and you have yet to provide anything that would bring most of this personal opinion into reality.

Your perverting the word influence and mistaking it for a historical core to legends that just isn't there without playing mental gymnastics.


Its great your exploring history, not so much that your creating drama everywhere you go.

spin

Still no source for the original of the Heru'm Atif form you've bandied about, ralfellis. You haven't supplied a source and you often disfigure names so that they no longer represent the original scholarly forms. Are you going to supply a scholarly citation for the name and the scholarly representation?

Are you going to admit that there is no historical basis whatsoever for this form "Hiram Abif"?

Are you going to admit that your championing of the form "Hiram Abif" has nothing to do with reality?

Are you going to admit that the use of "abi" in 1 Chr 2:13 is no different from the examples I've provided regarding Saul abi in 1 Sam 19:2 and David abi in 1 Kgs 2:24?

Once you admit these things we don't even have to deal with the nonsense about how a /t/ could become a /b/ (Atif -> Abiff)--not one of the most common sound changes found in the history of linguistics.

There is no rational methodology to be seen in the manipulation of names to make them look similar to others, especially when there is no way to falsify the results. Instead of trying to peddle this nonsense around internet forums, I would suggest that, if you are really interested in the materials you are dealing with, you learn the methodologies necessary to deal with them seriously.

ralfellis

I use Wiki when something is well known by everyone. Sorry, but I had no idea that some people did not know about Hiram Abif. Strange, but then we do live and learn.


I am not sure why you are all having problems with this, as it is really simple.

The Tanakh says that Hiram was called Hiram my Father's. Now this is a peculiar English translation, as the name is literally spelt as Hiram Abi. (Hiram and Father)

Masons have added an 'f' onto this name, because they knew that the original Egyptian name required that. Thus Masonry has derived Hiram Abif (sometimes with two 'f's')

Is that difficult? Is the Tanakh not a primary source in this regard?

http://www.masonicworld.com/educatio...AM%20ABIFF.HTM


(The original Egyptian spelling of this name is given in the history of the 21st dynasty, where the architect of Psusennes was Heru-m-Atif, meaning 'Horus was my Father'.)



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spin

igsfly:

You have difficulty responding to anything, don't you? You can assert what you like about the Masons. It won't help you because it is not connectable to anything beyond a few hundred years of tradition. It's utterly useless in the real world of scholarship and it doesn't take a lot of thought to understand that. You may as well use information from old comics, as being just as trustworthy. "Hiram Abif" is obviously dead, given your sole reliance of the fucking Masons. What a joke.

The source, damn it, not more waffle. What is the exact reference you use to know about this figure you call Heru-m-Atif? Please specify a scholarly publication that mentions him, the year of publication, the page number.

lpetrich

I want to see a justification of *every* assertion here. Yes, *every* assertion. It's a standard rule for anyone proposing a new theory: the burden of proof falls on them.