Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 09-24-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhaedas
Hopefully we can opt out, if it's like the biblical version...

And the Borg comparision has been made before, from the cube shape, all the way to the one minded collectiveness. Yet another reason to not wish for such a place...

So much bitterness and hate.

Rhaedas · 09-24-2003, 12:19 PM

Pot. Kettle.

How is it bitter and hateful to want something different than what is portrayed, if indeed there is something afterwards?

I personally don't want to sit mindlessly for eternity singing "glory, glory". I find collectiveness thinking (or worse, mindlessness) distasteful. I'm sorry my opinion harms you so deeply.

Unless wanting something different is a form of rebellion, in which case I guess I am hateful. You can have that vision of heaven, Magus. I prefer to better myself (and the rest of the world) in this life (the only life I see evidence for), and let the chips fall where they may afterward. That's just the way "god"/genetics made me.

Spurious Quirk · 09-24-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Not sure what an actual soul looks like, but we will have bodies. We will recognize each other though. Mat 17 shows that Peter, James and John recognized Moses and Elias even though Moses and Elias lived a thousand years eariler.

i.e. Nametags.

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We will have perfect, incorruptible bodies like Jesus' body after ressurection. Jesus' body looked just like it did before He died, so ours probably will too, although we won't have any imperfections ( like missing limbs).

Will our optic nerves be behind our retinas this time?

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We won't be subject to the laws of nature. Jesus walked through walls. There is no extremes of heat and cold in Heaven, its perfect.

What if perfection for me is 72 degrees F, and for you it's 78 degrees? Who gets to control the thermostat?

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No one knows what we will do, but it won't be nothing but worship. For example, the first thing Jesus does once all believers are in Heaven, and judgement is over, is throw a heavenly banquet for everyone.

"We've just sent billions of human beings to their fiery doom, so let's PAAARTY!!"

Hmmm, sounds like its going to be a barbeque....

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We will each have our own mansion. Privacy won't be an issue - what do you have to hide? We will be perfect. No shame or secrets to be had in Heaven.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

So the only reason you seek privacy is to hide? You never need 'me-time' except when you are concealing a dirty little secret?

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Yes we are clothed, in robes of pure white.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

All you need is a UV light and some funky music and you've got a recipe for fun, fun, fun!

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Bible doesn't say. Probably what ever "age" everyone else will be, although Age is irrelevent since time has no meaning in Heaven.

She's talking about mental age -- if you are never born or die very young then you never have the chance to develop a personality and a mind. So how can there be any 'you' to be in heaven?

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No they don't stay married or "live" together.

Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Uh...since you seem to think extra-marital sex is a sin, and since people aren't going to be married in heaven, and since you imagine sin cannot be committed in heaven....I'm guessing there will be no sex in heaven.
.....
Hmmmm.
Well, as long as there's heroin I'm ok.

Cheers

(p.s. just kidding about the heroin)

Wayne Delia · 09-24-2003, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Not sure what an actual soul looks like... And not sure what happens to souls. Whether they are in Heaven or Hell first, or whether they are in a static state and don't do anything...
Jesus' body looked just like it did before He died, so ours probably will too... No one knows what we will do, but it won't be nothing but worship... 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him... Not sure, Bible doesn't say... Bible doesn't say. Probably what ever "age" everyone else will be, although Age is irrelevent since time has no meaning in Heaven...

Not that I ever pay much attention to Magus55's interpretation of anything theological, but it certainly sounds like someone has a huge amount of uncertainty in the details making up what he thinks is a certainty. Heaven simply isn't that well defined.

And this particular statement jumps out with extreme irony:

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Basically, as long as it doesn't fall under the category of sin, you will be able to do it...

That undermines somewhat the Christian apologetic of free will as a defense for the existence of evil in the world. All of a sudden, after someone dies and has demonstrated qualifications to enter heaven, their all-important free will is no longer quite so important, so it's completely removed? Why didn't God do that in the first place with actual live humans? It is argued by weak apologists that man has free will because "God doesn't want an army of mindless robots," but when they get to heaven, that seems to be exactly what God turns them into.

Finally, Magus55 quotes ad nauseum from Revelation for the few assertions he knows about heaven, but Revelation 12:7-8 reads "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." The dragon is identified as Satan. What kind of evil did Satan manage to do in heaven that nobody else will be able to do, and why was their war in heaven in the first place?

WMD (President, QueenofSwords Fan Club)

Magus55 · 09-24-2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Not that I ever pay much attention to Magus55's interpretation of anything theological, but it certainly sounds like someone has a huge amount of uncertainty in the details making up what he thinks is a certainty. Heaven simply isn't that well defined.

Of course the details of Heaven aren't very numerous. For one, the human mind can't even begin to conceive the extent of Heaven - we can only get a glimpse into what it will be like, and second - who cares what Heaven is like other than it being paradise? Its the best place imaginable for believers. The details aren't important - knowing we will be with God is. God made a bigger deal about Hell because He doesn't want anyone to go there.

Quote:

And this particular statement jumps out with extreme irony:That undermines somewhat the Christian apologetic of free will as a defense for the existence of evil in the world. All of a sudden, after someone dies and has demonstrated qualifications to enter heaven, their all-important free will is no longer quite so important, so it's completely removed? Why didn't God do that in the first place with actual live humans? It is argued by weak apologists that man has free will because "God doesn't want an army of mindless robots," but when they get to heaven, that seems to be exactly what God turns them into.

How does not sinning take away free will? We would still be in paradise right now if it weren't for sin. Would you really be stupid enough to be in a place of eternal happiness and bliss, knowing how awful a world full of sin was by experiencing it first-hand, and then go right around and throw paradise away all over again? It would take an extremely stupid person to give up Heaven after knowing what life on Earth was like from sin.

And of course, anyone who wants to be able to sin in Heaven, doesn't belong there in the first place.

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Finally, Magus55 quotes ad nauseum from Revelation for the few assertions he knows about heaven, but Revelation 12:7-8 reads "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." The dragon is identified as Satan. What kind of evil did Satan manage to do in heaven that nobody else will be able to do, and why was their war in heaven in the first place?

Satan called on a third of God's angels and tried to rebell against God, and take over the throne. Satan wanted God's authority and power. Michael, is God's head Archangel, and He battled Satan's followers and fought them out of Heaven. Spiritual battles between good and evil, angels and demons go on all the time. That one just happened to be the first and the biggest.

Mageth · 09-24-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Not sure what an actual soul looks like, but we will have bodies. We will recognize each other though. Mat 17 shows that Peter, James and John recognized Moses and Elias even though Moses and Elias lived a thousand years eariler.

How did they recognize them if they'd been dead a thousand years?

We will have perfect, incorruptible bodies like Jesus' body after ressurection. Jesus' body looked just like it did before He died, so ours probably will too, although we won't have any imperfections ( like missing limbs).

Jesus still had his scars, didn't he?

We won't be subject to the laws of nature. Jesus walked through walls. There is no extremes of heat and cold in Heaven, its perfect.

If we won't be subject to the laws of nature, what difference will it make what the temperature is? And how do you know absolute zero is not the perfect temperature for God?

I'm sure you could breathe underwater since you probably won't need oxygen. And we can travel anywhere in the universe instantly like the angels can.

If we won't need oxygen, then we wouldn't need to breathe at all, would we? So why would our "perfect" bodies need lungs, a heart, a circulatory system, a nose, and muscles that burn oxygen?

And where is the biblical support for your assertion that angels can travel anywhere in the universe instantly?

No one knows what we will do, but it won't be nothing but worship. For example, the first thing Jesus does once all believers are in Heaven, and judgement is over, is throw a heavenly banquet for everyone. Basically, as long as it doesn't fall under the category of sin, you will be able to do it. And you'll be able to do things you can't even dream of.

If there's no sin in heaven, what need for a category of sin?

We will each have our own mansion. Privacy won't be an issue - what do you have to hide? We will be perfect. No shame or secrets to be had in Heaven.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Where does that verse indicate that we each will have our own mansion in Heaven? In any event, I thought such materialism would fall under the "categor of sin".

Bible doesn't say. Probably what ever "age" everyone else will be, although Age is irrelevent since time has no meaning in Heaven.

If time has no meaning in Heaven, then how can we ever "do" anything there? You can't really do anything without a time dimension.

No they don't stay married or "live" together.

Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

That verse doesn't indicate that people that are married won't stay married. Got another?

Mageth · 09-24-2003, 01:01 PM

How does not sinning take away free will?

Ca-ching! That's contrary to the very argument you've used to defend the need for temptation and free will - if we do not have the opportunity to sin, we don't have free will, and thus cannot freely choose to serve god - when arguing against the argument (phrased much like your statement above) that God could have created a universe in which we could still have free will and not sin (i.e. the temptation in the Garden wasn't necessary).

MortalWombat · 09-24-2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
There is no extremes of heat and cold in Heaven, its perfect.

Not according to thermodynamics, although it's still a matter of dispute on whether Heaven or Hell is hotter.

TomboyMom · 09-24-2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerusha
Won't everyone be wearing white robes and thongs?

I prefer briefs, thank you.

Rene

Wayne Delia · 09-24-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Of course the details of Heaven aren't very numerous. For one, the human mind can't even begin to conceive the extent of Heaven - we can only get a glimpse into what it will be like, and second - who cares what Heaven is like other than it being paradise?

If we "can't even begin to conceive the extent of heaven," then how can anyone make a valid assertion that it is even worth trying to get into?

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Its the best place imaginable for believers.

What happened to your original assertion that "the human mind can't even begin to conceive" details about heaven? All of a sudden, Christians can?
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The details aren't important - knowing we will be with God is. God made a bigger deal about Hell because He doesn't want anyone to go there.

Sounds like there's a lot of fine print left out of the contract there. You're leaving yourself open to a huge disappointment. God may want you singing His praises every minute of every day for eternity, which (as Mark Twain pointed out in "Letters from the Earth") man can't even bring himself to stay awake for more than two hours per week in this life.

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How does not sinning take away free will? We would still be in paradise right now if it weren't for sin.

Please tell me you're joking. That's the standard Christian apologetic for why evil exists. God allows evil to exist, and permits needless suffering, pain, and death, all to preserve our free will. For example, Hitler was permitted to administer the Holocaust because God wanted to preserve Hitler's free will to choose such evil on such a large scale. Free will is one of the most popular explanations of the "Problem of Evil."
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Would you really be stupid enough to be in a place of eternal happiness and bliss, knowing how awful a world full of sin was by experiencing it first-hand, and then go right around and throw paradise away all over again? It would take an extremely stupid person to give up Heaven after knowing what life on Earth was like from sin.

That's a complete non-sequitur, and it also appears you're equivocating on your position from "can't sin in heaven" to "can sin, but won't ever want to."
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And of course, anyone who wants to be able to sin in Heaven, doesn't belong there in the first place.

Then how did Satan not only manage to end up in heaven, but also started a war with Michael? God didn't see any of that coming? Revelation 12:7-8 demonstrates that it's not only possible to sin in heaven, but there exists a greater-than-zero chance that people in heaven can and do get thrown out - apparently, an entire third of heaven's population didn't make the grade later on.
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Satan called on a third of God's angels and tried to rebell against God, and take over the throne. Satan wanted God's authority and power.

Those would be sins, right? Satan was in heaven, and convinced a third of the population to join an insurrection, and they got the heave-ho? So, wouldn't it be fair to characterize fully a third of God's angels as... what were your words... "extremely stupid" persons? Is it OK with God if you criticiized His angelic choir in that way?
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Michael, is God's head Archangel, and He battled Satan's followers and fought them out of Heaven. Spiritual battles between good and evil, angels and demons go on all the time. That one just happened to be the first and the biggest.

So all this war and shit happens in heaven? I thought it was supposed to be a paradise! "Eternal happiness, with occasional outbursts of heavy artillery from the infantry." In any case, we've disposed of your claim that sin can't be done in heaven.

WMD

09-24-2003, 12:58 PM	#16
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Re: Re: Questions about heaven Originally posted by Magus55 Not sure what an actual soul looks like, but we will have bodies. We will recognize each other though. Mat 17 shows that Peter, James and John recognized Moses and Elias even though Moses and Elias lived a thousand years eariler. How did they recognize them if they'd been dead a thousand years? We will have perfect, incorruptible bodies like Jesus' body after ressurection. Jesus' body looked just like it did before He died, so ours probably will too, although we won't have any imperfections ( like missing limbs). Jesus still had his scars, didn't he? We won't be subject to the laws of nature. Jesus walked through walls. There is no extremes of heat and cold in Heaven, its perfect. If we won't be subject to the laws of nature, what difference will it make what the temperature is? And how do you know absolute zero is not the perfect temperature for God? I'm sure you could breathe underwater since you probably won't need oxygen. And we can travel anywhere in the universe instantly like the angels can. If we won't need oxygen, then we wouldn't need to breathe at all, would we? So why would our "perfect" bodies need lungs, a heart, a circulatory system, a nose, and muscles that burn oxygen? And where is the biblical support for your assertion that angels can travel anywhere in the universe instantly? No one knows what we will do, but it won't be nothing but worship. For example, the first thing Jesus does once all believers are in Heaven, and judgement is over, is throw a heavenly banquet for everyone. Basically, as long as it doesn't fall under the category of sin, you will be able to do it. And you'll be able to do things you can't even dream of. If there's no sin in heaven, what need for a category of sin? We will each have our own mansion. Privacy won't be an issue - what do you have to hide? We will be perfect. No shame or secrets to be had in Heaven. Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Where does that verse indicate that we each will have our own mansion in Heaven? In any event, I thought such materialism would fall under the "categor of sin". Bible doesn't say. Probably what ever "age" everyone else will be, although Age is irrelevent since time has no meaning in Heaven. If time has no meaning in Heaven, then how can we ever "do" anything there? You can't really do anything without a time dimension. No they don't stay married or "live" together. Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. That verse doesn't indicate that people that are married won't stay married. Got another?

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09-24-2003, 12:19 PM	#12
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Pot. Kettle. How is it bitter and hateful to want something different than what is portrayed, if indeed there is something afterwards? I personally don't want to sit mindlessly for eternity singing "glory, glory". I find collectiveness thinking (or worse, mindlessness) distasteful. I'm sorry my opinion harms you so deeply. Unless wanting something different is a form of rebellion, in which case I guess I am hateful. You can have that vision of heaven, Magus. I prefer to better myself (and the rest of the world) in this life (the only life I see evidence for), and let the chips fall where they may afterward. That's just the way "god"/genetics made me.

09-24-2003, 01:01 PM	#17
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	How does not sinning take away free will? Ca-ching! That's contrary to the very argument you've used to defend the need for temptation and free will - if we do not have the opportunity to sin, we don't have free will, and thus cannot freely choose to serve god - when arguing against the argument (phrased much like your statement above) that God could have created a universe in which we could still have free will and not sin (i.e. the temptation in the Garden wasn't necessary).

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