Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-10-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Don't we have many more examples of popular pagan literature (pardon me for not being able to think of the names for examples at the moment).

The literature of Apollonius of Tyana was destroyed but fragments remain, such as Eusebius "On Sacrifice". I have not yet read the pages on Julian (the Apostate!) such as http://tertullian.org/fathers/julian_apostate_1_sun.htm (thanks Roger, also, btw) but a quick scan finds immediate resonance with what is reported via Philostratus of Apollonius.

A number of books written by Apollonius were extant immediately prior to the fourth century. Conservativism deliberates involvement in this issue due to admitted lack of information, but there are optimistic predictions.

A number of these literary works of Apollonius were purportedly translated into Arabic, and some of these, such as "The Book of Stones" have attracted their first translations into english. If other works of Apollonius ("Balinas" or "Balinus" in arabic) are in the future found as ancient arabic ms, then information about the nature of the writings of Apollonius will increase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Very little, I think. Does anyone know much about the Hermetic corpus? (I am quite ignorant about it).

I have recently been in correspondence with Keven Brown who gave me permission to hold a copy of the following article at my site (see address below). I believe that the approach this author has adopted to the investigation of the Hermetic corpus is exemplary, because he differentiates and separately treats the Hermetica of the Roman empire and the Hermetica of the Arabic literature.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/Hermes...even_Brown.htm

The article is entitled "Hermes Trismegistus and Apollonius of Tyana in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh" but dont be put off by this, and I hope there will be something of value gained by this perspective.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

Clivedurdle · 04-11-2006, 12:36 PM

Mr Trimestigus!

Any discussion of gnosticism has to introduce alchemy and of course Jung!

.

Quote:

The Gnostic Jung (Paperback)
by C. G. Jung, Robert A. Segal (Editor)

Customers who bought this also bought
The Allure of Gnosticism: The Gnostic Experience in Jungian Psychology and Contemporary Culture by Robert A. Segal
The Gnostic Gospels (Vintage) by Elaine Pagels
The Nag Hammadi Library in English : Revised Edition by James M. Robinson
Jung on Christianity (Encountering Jung) by C. G. Jung
The Psyche in Antiquity: Gnosticism and Early Christianity : From Paul of Tarsus to Augustine (Studies in Jungian Psychology By Jungian Analysts, 2) by Edward F. Edinger

Editorial Reviews
Book Description
Gnosticism, together with alchemy, was for C. G. Jung the chief prefiguration of his analytical psychology. Jung did not simply interpret Gnostic texts psychologically but also cited them as confirmation of his psychology. An authority on theories of myth and Gnosticism, Robert Segal has searched the Jungian corpus to bring together in one volume Jung's main discussions of this ancient form of spirituality. Included in this volume are both Jung's sole work devoted entirely to Gnosticism, "Gnostic Symbols of the Self," and his own Gnostic myth, "Seven Sermons to the Dead." The book also contains key essays by two of the best-known writers on Jungian psychology and Gnosticism: Father Victor White and Gilles Quispel, whose "C. G. Jung und die Gnosis" is here translated for the first time. In his extensive introduction Segal discusses Jung's fascination with Gnosticism, the parallel for Jung between ancient Gnostics and modern Jungian patients, the Jungian meaning of Gnostic myths and of the Seven Sermons, Jung's possible misinterpretation of Gnosticism, and the common characterization of Jung himself as a contemporary Gnostic.

The Gnostic Jung (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Clivedurdle · 04-11-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

But it is best to ignore the four books which Moeragenes composed about Apollonius, because of the great ignorance of their subject that they display.[38]

As to the reliability of Philostratus’ work and the possibility of reconstructing an accurate historical picture of Apollonius of Tyana from it, modern historians generally agree that Philostratus fabricated much of his biography to please the expectations of his patroness. Such likely fabrications include the figure of Damis, the accounts of Apollonius’ encounters with several Roman emperors, and Apollonius’ journeys to India and Rome.[39] He does not seem to have been known in Rome until the fourth century, when his legend became famous due to the controversy between Eusebius and Hierocles, which will be explained below. Philostratus himself was “a man of letters and a sophist full of passion for Greek Romance and for studies in rhetoric…hardly interested in the historical Apollonius.”[40]

From mountainman link above and completely off topic - why are the Gospels not dismissed in the same fashion as these books?

Roger Pearse · 04-11-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

From mountainman link above and completely off topic - why are the Gospels not dismissed in the same fashion as these books?

Why not do us all a favour and have a read of Maria Dzielska, Apollonius of Tyana in Legend and History, trans. Piotr Pienkowski (Rome: “L'Erma” di Bretschneider, 1986) pp. 32-38, 185? You could report back on what sort of arguments are involved. Then we could see whether they (a) stand up and (b) apply elsewhere.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

skeptic dave · 04-11-2006, 03:25 PM

for me Gnosticism is the most intriguing of all of the ancient christianities that did not get canonized, albeit i'm not religious in the least and definitely not a christian.

Gnosticism may be best discussed as "Gnosticisms", as there are different directions the interpretations take based on the Nag Hamadi library of Gnostic texts. at the very least it is a mystery religion with levels of initiation. a coded religion with the more knowledgeable being farther involved than the new initiates and that alone is similar to some Pagan mystery religious practice, ex: Pythagoreans.

it is believed by some scholars that Pagans and Gnostics would commonly gather to observe and worship together. now that is benevolence. Gnostics also drew names at each gathering to pick who would lead the worship and women were treated as equals to men, again, more benevolence.

skeptic dave · 04-11-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tholzel

A) A rich man can no more enter the kingdom of heaven than a rope can be threaded through a needle.

a rich man can no more enter heaven than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.

a nice 2000 yr. old allegory for poor peasants to embrace.

religions offer something for both the wealthy and the poor; immortality. but not by riches or suffering but by belief and observance of ritualistic christianity.

mountainman · 04-11-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Mr Trimestigus!

Note that Eusebius refers (at least once) to his blessed emperor
Constantine as "THRICE BLESSED".

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

mountainman · 04-11-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Why not do us all a favour and have a read of Maria Dzielska, Apollonius of Tyana in Legend and History, trans. Piotr Pienkowski (Rome: “L'Erma” di Bretschneider, 1986) pp. 32-38, 185? You could report back on what sort of arguments are involved. Then we could see whether they (a) stand up and (b) apply elsewhere.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Surely the arguments are first given by Eusebius:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu..._hierocles.htm

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

Clivedurdle · 04-12-2006, 02:27 AM

Quote:

IF then we may be permitted to contrast the reckless and easy credulity which he goes out of his way to accuse us of, with the accurate and well-founded judgment on particular points of the Lover of Truth, let us ask at once, not which of them was the more divine nor in what capacity one worked more wondrous and numerous miracles than the other ; nor let us lay stress on the point that our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ was the only man of whom it was prophesied, thanks to their divine inspiration, by Hebrew sages who lived far back thousands of years ago, that he should once come among mankind ; nor on the fact that he converted to his own scheme of divine teaching so many people ; nor that he formed a group of genuine and really sincere disciples, of whom almost without exaggeration it can be said that they were prepared to lay down their lives for his teaching at a moment's call ; nor that he alone established a school of sober and chaste living which has survived him all along ; nor that by his peculiar divinity and virtue he saved the whole inhabited world, and still rallies to his divine teaching races from all sides by tens of thousands ; nor that he is the only example of a teacher who, after being treated as an enemy for so many years, I might almost say, by all men, subjects and rulers alike, has at last triumphed and shown himself far mightier, thanks to his divine and mysterious power, than the infidels who persecuted him so bitterly, those who in their time rebelled against his divine teaching being now easily won over by him, while the divine doctrine which he firmly laid down and handed on has come to prevail for ages without end all over the inhabited world ; nor that even now he displays the virtue of his godlike might in the expulsion, by the mere invocation of his mysterious name, of sundry troublesome and evil demons which beset men's bodies and souls, as from our own experience we know to be the case. To look for such results in the case of Apollonius, or even to ask about them, is absurd.

From above.

A classic example of rewriting history by the victors, and dumping the gnostic and other roots of these xian religions. Maybe we should be clear we are discussing a group of vaguely related religions that evolved very differently in Greece, Gaul, Egypt, Italy and the Middle East, that cross fertilised ideas and slowly constructed this centralised heirarchical concept of the christ.

Marcion, Valentinus, Simon Magus and Basilides had very different views, which survived at least to the Albigensian Crusades and which certain texts found last century have helped to remind us of these heresies!

The alleged

Quote:

only example

was a view that was forced on everyone else over time.

mountainman · 04-12-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

From above.

A classic example of rewriting history by the victors, and dumping the gnostic and other roots of these xian religions. Maybe we should be clear we are discussing a group of vaguely related religions that evolved very differently in Greece, Gaul, Egypt, Italy and the Middle East, that cross fertilised ideas and slowly constructed this centralised heirarchical concept of the christ.

We are lead to believe this genesis of thought via the literature of Eusebius who first asserted to construct a purported theory of history in the 4th century in respect of the immediately preceeding 3 centuries. That this literature represents historical factual material is one postulate. That this literature represents theological romantic fiction is another. The former has been the unstated hypothesis for millennia, the latter only recently framed, unless we examine closely the role of Arius.

Quote:

Marcion, Valentinus, Simon Magus and Basilides had very different views, which survived at least to the Albigensian Crusades and which certain texts found last century have helped to remind us of these heresies!
The alleged was a view that was forced on everyone else over time.

Marcion, Valentinus, Simon Magus and Basilides may have been fictional characters, or they may have been redacted/interpolated historical figures in a massive 4th century literature creation and perversion operation underwritten by Constantine. We think we see an evolution of thought over time, but that was the operative assignment.

Here Eusebius sets the foundation ...

Quote:

HE 3,21
I have of necessity prefaced my history with these matters in order that no one, judging from the date of his incarnation, may think that our Saviour and Lord Jesus, the Christ, has but recently come into being.

<bold>Chapter IV.
The Religion Proclaimed by Him to All Nations
Was Neither New Nor Strange.</bold>

4.1 But that no one may suppose that his doctrine is new and strange, as if it were framed by a man of recent origin, differing in no respect from other men, let us now briefly consider this point also.

4.2 It is admitted that when in recent times the appearance of our Saviour Jesus Christ had become known to all men there immediately made its appearance a new nation; a nation confessedly not small, and not dwelling in some corner of the earth, but the most numerous and pious of all nations ...

Thus we may see a motive for the Eusebian interpolation of Josephus, and for the select phrase "the tribe of christians" for which Eusebius needs to assert a priority date (or two!) in the patristic literature.

Just remember that the victors could have written anything, because the supreme Roman emperor who called the council of Nicaea on account of certain words of Arius, allowed the victors to sign his creed, and wined and dined them for four months.

Previous emperors, such as Hadrian, purportedly had respect for "philosophers and philosophy". The Life of Secundus the Philosopher (tranlated Ben Perry) has a two-fold import relevant here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...hilosopher.htm

1) It shows the Roman emperors to have exercised power over the life and death of their subjects on a daily basis.

2) It lists the (gnostic related) subject matter of philosophical treatise by an emperor-respected philosopher in the period 100 to 300.

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

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04-11-2006, 03:25 PM	#35
skeptic dave Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Tulsa, Ok Posts: 11	for me Gnosticism is the most intriguing of all of the ancient christianities that did not get canonized, albeit i'm not religious in the least and definitely not a christian. Gnosticism may be best discussed as "Gnosticisms", as there are different directions the interpretations take based on the Nag Hamadi library of Gnostic texts. at the very least it is a mystery religion with levels of initiation. a coded religion with the more knowledgeable being farther involved than the new initiates and that alone is similar to some Pagan mystery religious practice, ex: Pythagoreans. it is believed by some scholars that Pagans and Gnostics would commonly gather to observe and worship together. now that is benevolence. Gnostics also drew names at each gathering to pick who would lead the worship and women were treated as equals to men, again, more benevolence.

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