premjan

I am unable to find any links of images to these Etruscan phalli. I have found the pashupati (similar to the one in the Indus Valley) in celtic art though - cernunnos?

mountainman

On p.138 of Danielou's work (above) there is a plate
entitled "Phallus with face, Filitosa, Corsica, 2nd Millen BCE".
This is the closest to Italy I can find at the moment.

Other plates show one at Maryport, Cumberland (undated).
On the page before this is a picture of the 1st century BCE
"Gunderstrap Caulron", showing Cernunnos, "Lord of the Animals".

God Fearing Atheist

This website says:

I'm sure 'The Other Side of the Story' won't contain any otherwise unknown information about a mithraeum on the Vatican, but it's worth covering all bases. Does anyone have, or can easily get ahold of, this book?

Toto

The author's name seems to be Rupert Furneaux. AmazonUK has one used copy, and if you google it, you can find other copies, not cheap, but affordable.

Roger Pearse

If anyone does have access, it would be nice to know if it has anything to offer in support of its suggestion.

Amedeo

The cave-shrines of Mithra used to have a fountain at the entrance. This feature became the blessed water font inside the entrance to all Roman-rite Christian churches. The 'basements' of the basilica in Vatican contain a 2nd century mosaic which portrays the sun-god (Mithra) on a charriot -- in the Apollo style. (Some people have identified the mosaic as a portraiture of Christ in the manner of Mithra. This is not entirely impossible since, at least later on, the Church decided to celebrate the birth of Christ on the birthday of Mithra: December 25, which was supposed to coincide with the winter solstice, and is actually close enough to it.)

The name of Vatican Hill (Mons Vaticanus) may be an Etruscan name, as it has been suggested (following the online etym. dictionary), but I don't why the older etymology, from "vates" (> vatic-) has been rejected. It is possible that there was a shrine near cemeteries which was oracular, so people would speak of the Soothsayer's Hill. The root "vatic-" is present in the verb Vaticinor [= I fortell], which is preserved in Italian [Vaticin-are] and, in contracted form, in my native dialect since the 2nd century B.C., Vatic-are, with the secondary meaning of, "to keep on harping; to wander," as in
ti vatiche a capu (< tibi vaticinatur caput): your head is wandering.
In very ancient Rome, the spirit (numen) that moved a baby to utter his first words was called Vaticanus.

Normally the mithaeums, in Rome and elsewhere, contained statues of the Sol Invictus (Mithra), not mosaics. The more I think of the Vatican mosaic, the more I believe it was a mosaic of Apollo -- on the chariot and with sun-rays shooting from his head. The cave may have been an oracular cave, like the one at Cumae, where the sibyl spoke forth. Both here and at Delphi, the temple of Apollo [god of prophesy] was build over the cave. [At Delphi, the pediment of the temple had the famous inscription, Gnodi se auton (Know Thyself).]

Since in the late part of the Old Era, Roman officials went to consult the Cuman Sibyl, there must have been none in Rome itself, or none of great importance. We seem to have no history of Vatican Hill before the first basilica was built. (Possibly there used to be an oracular cave -- whence the name Vaticanus -- which was then turned into a Mithraic shrine, which was eventually superseded by the Christian basilica. The dating of the mosaic becomes an interesting puzzle.)

Roger Pearse

Um, I hope you won't mind if I query these somewhat?

Is there evidence for this statement?

Do you know whether there is any evidence for such a transfer?

Can I ask where you got this stuff from? -- It's probably best to reference our sources on such things, rather than taking responsibility for it ourselves.

This is rather misleading. The basilica was built over a row of Roman tombs, which can still be visited since the excavations of the 30's and 40's. One of the tombs contains a third-century depiction of a deity in a solar chariot rather like Helios or perhaps Apollo (iconography is not my thing). There is no association with Mithras, nor indeed Sol Invictus (the normal person mentioned in this connection).

Which people, where, tho?

In fact there is no documented association between Mithras and 25 December, no documented date for a 'birthday' for Mithras, and certainly no evidence that 'the Church' (who, specifically?) decided to locate Christmas on that date for that reason. It's all a myth.

Can we document the presence of Sol Invictus in any Mithraeum, tho?

Which cave?

I hope that doesn't seem brutal on my part, and I don't mean to hurt your feelings. But these are the questions that I think that we should all get into the habit of asking whenever we read something about 'Mithra'. So often it's bunk.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/gen...=9780199216130

Clivedurdle

This is about volcanic activity in the Rome area. I hope people realise that an important way to get visions, soothsay etc was to sit in volcanic fumes.

Someone really should do an international study of why Churches get built where they are - volcanoes and earthquakes are probably very significant.

http://skepdic.com/alp.html

Amedeo

The specific points I have mentioned about Mithra and Mithraeums come from various readings I did in the past, including the book I have, Cumont's The Mysteries of Mithra. (I never checked on the accuracy of the facts or the opinions stated here and there.)

About the mosaic of the solar figure, once again I had in mind the interpretations made in archeology or art books about it representing either Mithras or Christ. I remember what I read. (As I indicated, I tend to see the figure as representing Apollo rather than anybody else. I have seen more refined mosaics of the solar Apollo. So, if this is a late Roman work of the 2nd/3rd century, it may have nothing to do with any ancient oracular cave).

Basically I expressed various uncertainties about the site whether the Constantinian basilica was built, even about the very name of the Hill, although I tend to agree with the old etymology, "The Sootsayer's Hill."
______________
I see that Cumon't book is available on line, with lots of pictures of the Mithra statues, etc.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/index.htm