angelo

Biblical scholarship is divided by fundamentalists who refuse to let go of their precious so-called scriptures, and real scholars who have studied the bible with an open mind. Before I take anything these people write as gospel truth, I observe where their coming from. I have read books, such as ''Who Wrote The Bible'' by Burton Mack. And ''The Bible Unearthed'' by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. Both excellent reads. Highly recommended. After reading such well researched scholarship, you come to the conclusion that the bible is so much B/S. Even the very existence of Moses has to be treated with caution, let alone that he wrote the first 5 books of the OT.

Dean Anderson

Especially since Dave was online yesterday, and has posted just now.

In fact, as I write this, he is currently online and posting in another thread...

Dave Hawkins

I AM out of town and I don't have all my books with me. To answer a few questions you had though doesn't require my books.

Yes, I own Wiseman's book and have even done a book review of it here ... http://afdave.wordpress.com/2006/09/...-dawn-of-time/ ... which is now linked from the Wikipedia Wiseman Hypothesis article.

As for the evidence you are asking for which compare the supposed Genesis colophons with recently discovered tablet colophons, this is one of the books I was referring to that would be difficult to get. I gave the citations in my Genesis debate but I think they are written in German. So there are some obstacles there for obtaining these. I would like to get ahold of an English translation but this will take time.

As for your comment about Genesis being a compilation, you are correct ... I hold the view that Moses wrote most of the Pentateuch and that the compiled portions are mainly (exclusively?) in Genesis.

Dean Anderson

I have to go now, to take my children swimming.

But I'll be back later (or possibly tomorrow) with evidence that the rest of the Torah couldn't have been written by Moses...

Constant Mews

In a way, it is unfortunate for Christianity that the OT works were ever included in the Christian canon.

Constant Mews

In fact, it has been recognized for centuries that Moses could not have written the Torah - and by various Jewish rabbis who would, one presumes, be in the know.

JonF

Still waiting for your slam-dunk explanation of 2 vs. 14, which you have not addressed.

VoxRat

You mean the explanation that's so stunningly obvious that Dave fell out of his chair laughing at us blind fools for not seeing it?

Yeah, I'm kind of curious about that, too.

spin

While afdave is showing his inadequacies over not even having read the notes of the work he is supposed to be citing, let's take another approach at analysing the texts.

One cute way of doing this is through the names found in them. Looking through the generations of the sons of Noah, Gen 10:1ff, we find some interesting names.

1. First of interest is Riphath, originally called Arpad, though its remains are now called Till Rif'at. This was a post-Hittite kingdom in northern Syria, ie when the Hittite kingdom which disappeared in the late 13th c. BCE, Riphath didn't exist.
2. Then there's Togarmah, a version of the place name that the Assyrians called Till-Garmmu. This was another post-Hittite kingdom in northern Syria and yes, Togarmah didn't exist in the late 13th c. BCE.
3. Next we come to Kittim, a town in Cyprus founded by the Phoenicians in the 10th c. BCE.
4. After that we have Sabteca, and this is actually the name of a Nubian king (transcribed from Egyptian as Shabatka or Shebitku) who ruled Egypt around 700BCE. Now the biblical Sabteca is indicated as the son of Cush, ie Nubia.

From what one can calculate from the pentateuch, Moses was supposed to have written his works well before the earliest of these.

Another pair of names should be considered if one wants to date anything. In Exodus 1:11, two cities are mentioned: Pithom and Raamses. Raamses as I have said elsewhere was named, naturally enough after the pharaoh Ramses II, who did the major building there. This is why some scholars feel they have to date the exodus to the 14th c. BCE. It's the other city which is the real worry, Pithom, built by the pharaoh Necho not long before 600 BCE. (This jaw dropper can be found by the disbeliever in Redford: "Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times", Princeton, 1992, p.451. -- Eek, a book.) Did Moses, who reputedly lived before 1400 BCE, write about a city which existed around 600 BCE, not earlier?

These are anachronisms which indicate that Genesis and Exodus were written at least partially much later than any time attributable to Moses.


spin

Stephen T-B

As those who engage with afdave discover, his position is unassailable, which it is bound to be since it is based on an assumption of the supernatural.
No appeal to reason, logic, facts - or anything which the rational mind seizes upon - can bring his fantasies down to earth.
They float up there in the great blue yonder, supported by the fairies. Or are they angels? Or demons? Or gods?
He does, though present an irresistible target - as we see.