Johnny Skeptic

But 10% aren't. In addition, there is nothing wrong with atheists or agnostics stating what the Christian position is. Surely you have stated what the Christian position is on many occasions.

thentian

On the other hand, I believe a large percentage of those are former christians who are quite capable of explaining the christian viewpoint (without defending it).

"The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors." (Deuteronomy 7:7, 8).

Not sure where that oath mentioned is found atm, but I suspect in Genesis.

Cheers!

karlmarx

Because she was hawt? (Anyway, it wasn't Helen, it was Hera - expect Hera to deliver some pestilence to you for getting her mixed up with that strumpet )

I think that this question makes sense if taken in the context of the mythology. The Jews are the descendants of Abraham. God makes Jews his chosen people when God promises Abraham that he would make a mighty nation out of his descendants. This happens right after God plays that trick on him that almost gets Isaac killed.

It seems to me that this "trick" that God played on Abraham is significant, in that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his ONLY son (and hence all his descendants, considering Abe's age) to the glory of God. In return, God "chose" the Jews (Abe's descendants) as his special people. If Abe hadn't been willing to do so, then maybe God might have played the same trick on someone else, and some other nation would have been "chosen".

I had always been puzzled about this story - but in retrospect, it makes perfect sense: it's necessary to explain the special place Jews have. Without it, Jews become just like everyone else.

This, I think, is the explanation on one level. On another level, I think Malachi is right: He chose the Jews because the Jews invented Him.

thentian

Interesting theory, but I don't think there is anything to back it in the bible. Maybe we have some (former) jews here who could offer insight on this? Maybe something in the Talmud?

Meanwhile, here is another mention:

II Sam 7:23-24 - And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God.

Nothing about the jews being chosen above other nations for any particular reason, though.

karlmarx

I know it's bad form to reply to one's own posts: but it occurred to me that there's a strange parallel with the way Christian mythology describes the end of the covenant.

It was entirely possible for God to come to earth as Jesus, only to rise at the end of an alloted time on earth (with no crucifixion). However, Christian mythology does not do things this way: it has Jesus crucified, with special emphasis on God giving up his only son. This brings the mythology around a full circle: according to Christian mythology, Jesus' coming to earth marked the end of the God's covenant with the Jews (and a new, universal covenant between God and humanity).

So the start of the Jewish covenant takes place with the Abraham/Isaac incident, with Abe willing to give up his only son. The end of the covenant takes place when God gives up his only son, and the Jews refuse to recognise him.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread, but it seems to me that whoever came up with this mythology did put some thought into it.

karlmarx

Sure there is, it's right there in black and white, Genesis 22:15-18

John Kesler

Since you have now said that you don't want strictly Christian responses, I will give the biblical answer.

And what was Yahweh's intention in choosing one special nation (his "treasured possession") above all others?

The Israelites were to be an example to the other nations, so that the "Gentiles," too, would want to follow Yahweh. As I pointed out in my post in another thread, choosing Israel for this purpose was a dismal failure, since the Israelites were just as wicked as the people they displaced.

thentian

You're right of course. I just found the relevant passage myself: "because you obeyed my voice" and was about to repost, but you beat me to it.

So there we have it, I guess. God chose the jews because their ancestor Abraham was willing to obey god no matter how insane orders he got. By the way, I don't think this entire story speaks well of Abraham , nor of God.

Minimalist

..

karlmarx

What needs to be understood is Abraham's special place in Jewish tradition. He is the great-grandfather of Joseph and his 12 brothers (who in turn became the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel). In other words, since every Jew belongs to one of the tribes, the entire Jewish nation traces its mythological ancestry to Abraham himself (more so than Adam or Noah, since they are the ancestors of everyone, gentiles included).

This "only son" theme screams out mythology to me. God's orders to Abe are crazy if interpreted literally - I think they only lose their craziness when interpreted as mythology (i.e. to explain the special place of Israel: by Abe offering his descendants to God, God takes them as his special people).