aa5874

Romans 4:15 is the correct verse, 'Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression'.

This basically means a person cannot sin or transgress a law if there is no law, hence the contradiction in Romans 2:12.

Boro Nut

OK. I think it's disreputable to continue propagating the theory that I started that Jesus was gay. It was a joke. You can't be gay if you're a myth. Work it out. Jesus was not gay OK. However, he was undoubtedly iconic, which suggests he was probably just a mythical gay icon that, rather prophetically, never actually sang "I Will Survive".

Boro Nut

Kharakov

Ok. You wrote 3:15 in your other post.
If you perish (die) apart from the law, it means you were not under the law at the time of your death. Only those under the law are judged by the law. Of course, everyone feels the impact of the law and judges their own actions and the actions of others by the understanding of moral law that God gives them. I don't think Jeffrey Dahmer would be judged by the same criteria that, say, pope John Paul would be. They are different people, made with different understanding of right/wrong.

Mmmmmmmmhhh people....

aa5874

Perhaps on judgement day the Pope will be under the jurisdiction of the Muslim God and Jeffrey Dahmer under the jurisdiction of the Shinto Gods, in that way, Paul's diatribe is invalid.

ChristMyth

As a lurker on these threads, I have to say that you never cease to amaze me, Boro Nut.

Christmyth

Gamera

A bit off topic, but read on:

Romans 2: 14-17 - When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 17

gstafleu

Yes, you did. Did you read the rest of my post? My conclusion is that while a theme reversal may give opportunity to see a link between Jewish mythology and the passion, it is by no means a strong enough link to say "now we know where it came from." You still need to go outside the OT for that.

Gerard Stafleu

aa5874

This diatribe is in conflict with Roman 4:15...'for where no law is, there is no transgression'.

Can you tell me what law is written on the heart of a Muslim, a Hindu, follower of the Shinto Gods, the disciples of Valetinus or Simon Magus? Paul had no idea what he was talking about, doctrinal mumbo-jumbo.

jakejonesiv

It is often imagined that a normative first century monotheistic Juadiasm existed, from which arose Christianity, with no influence from the pagan religions, sparked by the deeds on a historic individual named Jesus. This position will not withstand scrutiny. Christianity was an individual salvation cult, in which the souls of those who joined the god by faith accrued the salvic benifits of his cosmic deeds. This is derived from the pagan mysteries. It is being "in Christ". It has not been demonstrated that this central concept, the mystical union of Christ and the believer, occurs anywhere the normative conception of Judaism.

But how did the influence enter, directly from the pagan religions, or indirectly through Hellenized Judaism?

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." Justin Martyr.


Christian is a syncretic religion. The dismissal of syncretism seems particularly questionable because writers like Tertullian spent so much time arguing the point.

Otherwise, one must imagine that Christian origins were isolated from all pagan influences. But how can this be true when Judaism itself was Hellenized to a vast degree? Antiochus IV had introduced the worship of pagan gods (Bacchus/Dionysus) into Judaism. 2 Macc, 6:7.
cf On Christ and Antichrist, 49 (Hippolytus)

So how can one claim the pagan myths were unknown to the Jews and early Christians? The influence entered either directly from the pagan religions, or indirectly through Hellenized Judaism. Or both.

The impact of Hellenistic culture on Jews in Judea, and even more so in the the Diaspora, is often underestimated and sometimes ignored when discussing Christian origins.

The great range of beilefs is revealed in an often overlooked resource, Jewish Funerary Inscriptions.

Suprisingly, "In Jerusalem itself about 40 percent of the Jewish inscriptions from the first-century period (before 70 C.E.) are in Greek. We may assume that most Jewish Jerusalemites who saw the inscriptions in situ were able to read them." ,endquote.

A couple of favorite inscriptions:
“Good luck with your resurrection.”(Schwabe and Lifshitz, Beth She’arim, nos. 193 and 194.).

“Don’t be despondent, for nobody is immortal except One, He who ordered this to happen (and) who has placed us in the sphere of the planets.” Frey, Corpus Inscriptionum Judaicarum, 778. This indicates a belief in astral immortality as does Daniel 12:3; 1 Enoch 104:2; 4 Maccabees 17:5; 4 Ezra 7:97 (cf. 125); 2 Baruch 51:10. (Why did the priests of Baal burn incense to the sun and the moon and to the constellations and to all the host of heaven? 2 Kings 23:5).

cf Philippians 3:20-21, "But our home is in the heavens, out of which we also are expecting a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall tranfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that enables him to subject the all to himself."

When noticing similarities between Christianity and the myths and salvation cults that arose in Hellenization, it is not necessary to establish linguistic derivation, it is only necessary to demonstrate that similiar ideas were current in the Roman Empire. When comparing the myths of Mithras and Attis, no one objects to the noting of similarities, and attributing themes to the common ideas from which the mystery cults arose. But the moment Christianity is brought into the discussion, you will suddenly find that no parallel to the mysties cults is close enough; demands for linquistic similarity (even to the
point of Vorlage) will be raised so high as to exclude them. If the past is any indication, Hide and watch.

OK, lets take an example.

What do you think of the apparent similarities of Jesus to Dyonisus in THE BACCHAE by Euripedes?
Would you classify Dionysus as a son of (a) god?
Dionysus is the child of Zeus and a Semele.
Thus Dionysus is born of a woman "Dionysus, whom the Daughter of Cadmus born".
Dionysus changed his form from god to mortal.

Dionysus becomes the wine himself as an offering to the gods.
"Apart from wine, there is no cure for human hardship. He, being a god, is poured out to the gods, so human beings receive fine benefits as gifts from him. "

This leads us to the pagan parallels to the Eucharist.

According to Cicero,
When we speak of corn as Ceres, and of wine as Liber, we use, it is true, a customary mode of speech, but do you think that any one is so senseless as to believe that what he is eating is the divine substance?
Marcus Tullius Cicero, On The Nature of the Gods , Book III 44 BCE. (Note that Liber is equivalent to Dionysus).

Now, this was a rhetorical question, but later on Christians would be "so senseless".

This was a great concern to the church fathers. The only defense was the absurd doctine of Diabolical Mimicry.
"The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven." Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter LIV.

Here is a question for proponents of the Historical Jesus. How did adismal prophet, who allegedly managed to get himself killed by the Romans, become in so short a period of time (a few years) the Lord of Creation, all with never an influence from similar ideas in pagan religions? You must postulate his discples hallucinated his resurrection, and from these "ghost stories" that Christianity arose as the result of mental pathology. Either that or play the supernatural card.

Jake Jones IV

Gamera

Well that settles that. Good analysis.

By the way, where did you get the idea that any text of any complexity isn't in conflict with some portion of itself.