Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-30-2003, 05:20 PM

No you didn't but I just wanted to tell you that the context used to describe metaphysical event must be borrowed from the physical world because there are no metaphysical words to describe such events. Slavery is just one such example and the flood is another one. So is the promised land and this includes hell along with the way to get there and this "way" is absent from the Hebrews because they were on their way to get there.

Dean Anderson · 12-01-2003, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JERDOG
You may wan to pic up Freeke and Gandy's book, "Jesus and the Lost Goddess".

I have their other book - "The Jesus Mysteries" and I was impressed by it.

I was impressed enough to believe that Christianity could have developed the way they claim - but not enough to believe that Christianity probably developed the way they claim.

Is "Jesus and the Lost Goddess" an extenstion of their 'Gnosticism and the Mystery Religions are the root of Christianity' argument?

Dean Anderson · 12-01-2003, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
Sophia is heavily grounded in Hebrew <grin>wisdom</> tradition. For example, Prov 2:6, "the Lord gives wisdom: out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding", Prov 9:1ff, Wisdom built her house and invited guests to come to her. In fact wisdom was with God at creation, Prov 8:22 tells us that she was the first creation and was present for all the rest.

Thanks a lot for this. I wasn't aware of a pre-existing Hebrew 'Wisdom Goddess'. Does she still figure in orthodox Jewish belief (I expect if she is anywhere she would be in the Kabbala) or has she been 'written out' over the centuries?

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The Apocryphal book Wisdom of Solomon tells us that Wisdom is "the fashioner of all things" (7:22), she is "the breath of power of God" (7:25), Wisdom "protected the first-born father of the world" (10:1), etc.

I've read the Wisdom of Solomon, and the talk of the 'breath of power of God' reminded me of the NT translation of 'pneuma' to 'Holy Spirit' (in Luke 11:13, etc.) That's why I thought that the two might be connected.

Quote:

Wisdom (HKMH or HKMWT), is anthropomorphized and interacts with the world in Hebrew tradition. She walks the streets and whoever hears her is blessed. As you can see she is feminine just as the Greek Sophia.

How is HKMH or HKMWT normally Anglicised (in the way that YHWH becomes Yahweh or Jehovah)?

Quote:

Wisdom is what comes forth from the mouth of God and is the equivalent of the word of God, so, at some stage, the metaphor jumped sex and became male and is one influence in the wisdom character of Jesus, who was the word which became flesh and lived among us -- as wisdom did.

I think therefore that Wisdom is the initial idea behind the wisdom Jesus. This of course doesn't mean that the wisdom tradition wasn't recycled as the holy spirit as well, but I think that would have been more under Greek influence and Gnosis.

Are you saying that 'John's Jesus=Logos doctrine could have come from a pre-existing Sophia=Logos idea that was adapted by the gospel writer?

That would equate John 1:1-5 with Prov 8:22 nicely.

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11-30-2003, 05:20 PM	#11
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	No you didn't but I just wanted to tell you that the context used to describe metaphysical event must be borrowed from the physical world because there are no metaphysical words to describe such events. Slavery is just one such example and the flood is another one. So is the promised land and this includes hell along with the way to get there and this "way" is absent from the Hebrews because they were on their way to get there.

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