Steven Avery

First response.. that your accusations of "fraud" come first, and then you look for whatever you can post facto, especially after you got burned by the Amirault accusations.

I'm not sure what your accusastion is, that Ron "seeded" the area many years earlier ? Or that a boat's wheel disassembled upon sinkage and that Lennart Moller did a misidentification ? The first might be dealt with simply enough dependent on the location of the wheel, since Moller had more sophisticated equipment than Ron, and could discuss the location aspect.

The picture has a number of similarities and differences. And we have pictures of Egyptian chariot wheels form that period that are virtually identical to what is in the water.

So, overall, I will give you credit for at least coming up an artifact to match your alternate scenario.

One of your problems is you are working off of only two pictures, while there are a number in the book such as 387 and 391 that are far more appropriate than the larger one that was initially posted, although less clear than the silt wheel.

However back to 380 and 382 and your theory of a brass handwheel. Worthy of more research. Lennart Moller could only put so much in one book, and it might be good to ask him for more details, such as locale and how he determined that a wheel was wooden or gilded, and how he would avoid a misidentification. I'll be more than happy to try to contact him and ask him to comment.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

yummyfur

Ok, your serious

What is more likely to be found in the gulf, a fairly recent brass(wont corrode that bad) handwheel from a boat, or an ancient chariot, which no matter what it was made out of would not appear so cleanly as the artifact in the picture.

Sauron

Translation: the area known for centuries and identified by scholars as Kadesh-Barnea contradicts the literal bible account.

Can't have that, can we?

Solution: pretend that another site must exist somewhere, undiscovered.

Convenient. Earlier you were arguing in favor of such claims, in spite of areas "restricted."

Now when a rebuttal comes, you want to strike it down, citing "areas beyond our knowledge" due to restrictions?

One of us is.

Sauron

That's not a response; it's a handwave.

No one has been "burned" by Amirault's claim. If you think otherwise, feel free to demonstrate.

The accusation is that *anyone* identifying the brass ship handwheel as a chariot wheel is either (a) incompetent or (b) deliberately trying to deceive.

1. Source, please?

2. And since the article in the water is clearly metallic, show archaeological evidence to suppor the claim of Egyptian chariot wheels from this time period being crafted in metal.

3. Finally, show evidence of similar articles from the same time period that have been found in modern times in salt water environments, where such articles show almost zero corrosion or other forms of decay, like the object in this image shows.

Steven Avery

Saruon, I have answered this about three times. I really have no idea what is your fixation on the Sinai name of Kadesh-Barnea, for which you have given zilch evidence.

So.. two questions for you...

Do you believe it is the Exodus location ?
What is the earliest identification of the site as the Exodus Kadesh-Barnea ?

If I get straight answers out of these questions, then we may have a base of dialog here.

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Jack the Bodiless

Why can't you simply answer the question?

WHERE IS the artifact itself?

How can the "folks from the professional establishement" examine an artifact they don't have?

Steven Avery

This is silly. I know somebody, unnamed, who says he gave Ron a lie detector test, with no record of the tester, the questions or anything, zilch documentation, and this unamed fellow says Ron failed his name.....
And on that basis I will yell "fraud"
You guys look so silly with that type of junque, you should just have the integrity to publicly distance yourself from same rather than use it as your base of accusation.
Lennart has a number of pictures, archaelogy, drawings on p.208-211. I think there is similar on the web, perhaps in the long thread next referenced.
We are getting more technical, so I will quote from another time this was discussed, with a bibliography.
http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000222-27.html
"there are a number of sources that confirm the use of Iron during the 18th dynasty."
"Chariots and Related Equipment from the tomb of Tutankhamun" (1985) by M A Littauer and J H Crouwel�
"Wheeled Vehicles and the Ridden Animals in the ancient near east" (1979) by same authors above
"Les Chevaux du Nouvel Empire Egyptien: Origines, Races, Harnachement" (1991) by C. Rommelaere
"Chariots, Chariotry and the Hyksos" (1980) - journal of the society of for the study of Egyptian antiquities
"Observations on the evolving chariot wheel in the 18th dynasty" by J K Hoffmeier (1976)
"A Chariot wheel from the tomb of Amenhophis II" (1973) by A C Western
"An Egyptian Wheel in Brooklyn" (1979) by M A Littauer and J H Crouwel

Beyond that, unless you want to make an affirmative claim of non-metal wheels, from real research and reference, I will leave it at that.

Dunno, researching. Off hand not sure of any objects other than sunk boats that could be considered, and those reports seem to be of a wide variety, and tis not my field. You have any expertise ? Any quotes ?

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Steven Avery

This is dumb, and a tad silly. Anyone in the field can contact Lennart Moller, scientist to scientist, for more information. Do you think I have the charts ? Or that Moller would publish detailed grid information that could be used by folks out for pilfering. Please. Use some common sense.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

yummyfur

No offense but if they could take that picture, they could easily recover the wheel themselves, Egyptian chariot wheels are not heavy, and since this wheel is pretty much uncovered, would take no work at all. This artifact properly verified, would bring in cash to do a full scale dig of the area(even if one was just saying it might be the contents of an ancient ship). This is how any reasonable marine archeologist would handle this, and does handle it.

By the way even on the very very very extremely off chance this was a chariot wheel, that does not mean it's Egyptian, from the right time period, and deposited by the exodus story, as it could easily be from the contents of a wrecked ancient ship.

One reason it's not likely to be an Egyptian chariot wheel, is that the spokes are way too thick. Also the four spoke model was pretty much gone by the 19th dynasty, replaced by the six spoke model. Also these were made of wood, with sometimes a very light metal covering or in rare cases, for ceremony gilt. This is very very very very very not likely to survive in such pristine condition (and stay altogeter in one piece, as even the outer wheel was constructed in parts) especially since it is clearly exposed on the surface. No archeologist would leave such an easy recoverable artifact exposed like this, as it could very rapidly deteriorate.

TollHouse

For those interested: according to the Bible Codes, Ron Wyatt is an fradulent, evil man.

http://exodus2006.com/fab/RonWyatt.htm
http://exodus2006.com/ron.htm