mountainman

Can you give me an example or two? Thanks Toto.

Is it true, as a converse analogy, that not everyone
who refers to the History of Christ is what we would
call an historicist?

What then exactly, would you put forward as the
more appropriate criteria for determining the
boundary conditions to distinguish an HJ theory
from an MJ theory (of ancient history).

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

For those wondering why William Benjamin Smith (1850-1934) of Tulane University is on the list, Robert E. Van Voost, in Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence says this about him:
Here are a couple of excerpts from one of his articles The Pre-Christian Jesus, William Benjamin Smith, The American Journal of Theology, Vol. 15, No. 2. (Apr., 1911), pp. 259-265.

The key sentence here that explains his main theory is this:as the great idea of the Jesus, the
healing, saving, demon-expelling God, circled round through the circum-
Mediterranean consciousness, it could hardly fail to attract and attach
to itself many wandering fragments of dismembered faiths


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Jeffrey Gibson

Actually, there was no wondering about why Smith was on the list. What was being wondered about was both where he taught and what his credentials were. To wit:

Tulane. Yep. Professor of Mathematics. Yes. Good credentials. Hoo Boy.

Now, what about questions 2, 3, and 4?

2. On what basis have you judged Brandon to be someone who denied the existence of Jesus of Nazareth?

3. On what basis do you judge Marcel Simon of Strasbourg University to be someone who denied the historicity of Jesus?

4. You've never actually read anything on Jesus/early Christianity that either Brandon and/or Simon has produced, have you?

Jeffrey

mountainman

This comment advertises a great lack of logic,
such that it borders on inflamatory. The ground
of BC&H is certainly not the ground of logicians,
with respect to the ancient historical evidence.
(There is no evidence to deal with ...)

BC&H scholarship is an insular and niche field,
but it is not immune to criticism. We dont know
the extent of genuine scholarship which might be
gained by a private research project in the field
by a professor of mathematics. Each case needs
obviously to be assessed on its own merits.

I could certainly understand Smith's position if
he did not have any desire whatsoever to associate
himself to any of the formal BC&H (theological)
institutes of his time.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

S.G.F. Brandon seems to be much more of a borderline case than I thought at first. He believed in an historical Jesus but also believed that the Jesus of the Gospels was a Myth.

Here's an example of his influence on Rev. Elizabeth L. Green, http://www.christianecology.org/Jesus.html

At nearly the same time, a classmate shared a book she had just read entitled "Religion in Ancient History" by a biblical scholar named S.G.F. Brandon. In it, he describes humanity’s oldest written documents, the hieroglyphic texts inside the Pyramids, and their tale of Osiris, an incarnating God turned human, who suffers unjust death, but by divine intervention is resurrected, ascends to the heavenly realm, and their reigns, judges, and provides a blessed after-life to the faithful. In Brandon’s words, "Osiris emerged as the classic prototype of the saviour-god, who by his own death and resurrection can assure to his devotees a new life after death."1 There it was. The proof I had sought. The Christ story was just a rip-off of an old Egyptian myth, a myth predating it by over 2,000 years, and predating any comparable Jewish writings by over a 1,000 years. With this powerful revelation, I completed my liberation from the tradition of my upbringing, deconstructing it, and ripping it out by the roots.

Cita Rom Goel, who was born in 1921, and took his M.A. in History in 1944, from the University of Delhi. He wrote this about Brandon in his book Jesus Christ: An Artifice for Aggression http://hamsa.org/jesus-fiction3.htm

Jesus as Synthetic Product
...
1958, S. G. F. Brandon, 'The Myth and Ritual Position', in Myth, Ritual and Kingship edited by S.H. Hooker, Oxford, 1958.

The author was a Professor of Comparative Religion in the University of Manchester and wrote several remarkable books on the subject of Jesus Christ. He saw in Christianity concepts which were alien to the Jewish religion but akin to the cult of Osiris in ancient Egypt, and concluded that Osiris "the vegetation god par excellence of Egypt" became "the Saviour to whom men and women turned for assurance of immortality". He also pointed out that the Christian baptismal ritual was patterned after the Osirian ritual.

1963, S. G. F.Brandon (ed.), The Saviour God, Manchester, 1963.

This book carried articles by Professor Brandon and Professor M. Simon, Professor of History of Religion in Strasburg University. Professor Simon saw in the story of Jesus a parallel to the story of William Tell who never existed but who was nevertheless regarded by many as a historical person. The two professors together developed further Brandon's recurring idea that Jesus was invented after the pattern of ancient saviour gods.


Eric J. Sharpe, in a Memorial Article emphasizes the historical Jesus that Brandon found. S. G. F. Brandon: (1907-1971)
Eric J. Sharpe, History of Religions, Vol. 12, No. 1. (Aug., 1972), pp. 71-74.

Of all his scholarly work, marked throughout by painstaking
attention to detail and admirably full documentation, there is
no doubt that it was his writing on the political element in early
Christianity which aroused the greatest attention. His contention
that Jesus had been executed by the Romans for sedition and
that the first Christian community had some features in common
with the Zealot movement is by now well known.

This is again a difficult borderline case. He apparently sees Paul as turning the executed Jesus into an Osiris-like savior God. He believes that Jesus' zealot followers were wiped out in the Roman-Jewish War in 70 C.E.. Probably the best thing to do is to put an asterisk next to his name.

This seems to go for Marcel Simon who apparently holds a similar position.

We do need to add two other people to the list, Cita Rom Goel, the Indian writer and a feminist writer named Barbara G. Walker. She studied journalism at the University of Pennsylvania and according to Wikipedia, "Her most important book is The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (1983). She also is an influential knitting expert and the author of several classic encyclopedic knitting references."

In an article entitled The Jesus Myth, she writes:

The truth is that we will probably never know what Jesus was, or even if he was. But it is fairly clear that he was connected with the mythos of pagan saviors, who were mostly nature deities, representing the eternal cycles of life and death. In this respect, their myths might point toward an updated religion more firmly founded on the realities of our world.

This brings our list up to 58.

1) G. A. Wells, 2) Robert M. Price, 3) Thomas L. Thompson, 4) Timothy Freke, 5) Peter Gandy, 6) Herman Detering, 7) Alvar Ellegard*, 8) Darrell Doughty, 9) Frank Zindler, 10) Michael Turton, 11) Luigi Cascioli, 12) Michel Onfray, 13) Francesco Carotta, 14) Tom Harpur, 15) Hal Childs, 16), Herbert Cutner, 17) Michael O. Wise, 18) Burton Mack*, 19) Jan Sammer, 20) Arthur M. Rothstein, 21) Michael Martin

Second List: These living writers with academic credentials that I am not sure about (but whose work may be just as important as the above) include:

1) Earl Doherty, 2) Richard Carrier, 3) Archaya S., 4) Joseph Atwill, 5) Ken Humphreys, 6) Harold Liedner, 7) Zane Winter, 8) Gary Courtney, 9) Michael Hoffman, 10) Max Rieser, 11) R.G. Price, 12) Barbara G. Walker

Third List: These deceased 20th century mythicists with academic credentials (although possibly not relevant fields):

1) Georg Morris Cohen Brandes, 2) John (J.M.) Robertson 3) Bertrand Russell, 4) Joseph McCabe 5) Livio C. Stecchini, 6) Thomas Whittaker, 7) John E. Remsburg, 8) Arthur Drews, 9) P. L. Couchoud, 10) John Allegro, 11) van den Bergh van Eysinga, 12) Robert Taylor, 13) Joseph Wheless, 14) Peter Jensen, 15) Gordon Rylands, 16) Guy Fau, 17) Mangasar Mugurditch Mangasarian, 18) Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 19) John E. Remsburg, 20) Marshall J. Gauvin, 21) J.G. Jackson, 22) William Benjamin Smith, 23) S.G.F. Brandon*, 24) Marcel Simon*, 25) Cita Rom Goel

* A writer who believes that the Jesus of the Gospels is primarily a myth, but thinks there is some kind of historical character extremely different from the Gospel character that the myth is based upon.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

According to an article in The Harvard Theological Review, (Vol. 19, No. 2, Apr., 1926, Recent French Discussion of the Historical Existence of Jesus Christ, pp. 115-142,) by Maurice Goguel, we need to add these three names to the list:
Albert Bayet, M.F.A. Aulard, and Salomon Reinach. They all supported Paul-Louis Couchoud's theory that no Jesus existed as the basis for Christianity.

Here is what I found on them in Wikipedia:

Salomon Reinach (August 29, 1858 - November 4, 1932) was a French archaeologist.
The brother of Joseph Reinach, he was born at St Germain-en-Laye and educated at the École normale supérieure before joining the French school at Athens in 1879. He made valuable archaeological discoveries at Myrina near Smyrna in 1880-82, at Cyme in 1881, at Thasos, Imbros and Lesbos (1882), at Carthage and Meninx (1883-84), at Odessa (1893) and elsewhere. He received honours from the chief learned societies of Europe.
In 1887 he obtained an appointment at the National Museum of Antiquities at Saint-Germain-en-Laye; in 1893 he became assistant keeper, and in 1902 keeper of the national museums. In 1903 he became joint editor of the Revue archéologique, and in the same year officer of the Legion of Honour. The lectures he delivered on art at the École du Louvre in 1902-3 were published by him under the title of Apollo. These were translated into most European languages, and became a standard handbook on the subject.
Reinach's first published work was a translation of Arthur Schopenhauer's Essay on Free Will (1877), which passed through many editions. This was followed by many works and articles in the learned reviews of which a list--up to 1903--is available in Bibliographie de S. R. (Angers, 1903). His Manuel de philologie classique (1880-1884) was crowned by the French association for the study of Greek; his Grammaire latine (1886) received a prize from the Society of Secondary Education; La Nécropole de Myrina (1887), written with E Pottier, and Antiquités nationales were crowned by the Academy of Inscriptions. He compiled an important Répertoire de la statuaire grecque et romaine (3 vols., 1897-98); also Répertoire de peintures du Moyen âge et de la Renaissance 1280-1580 (1905, etc.); Répertoire des vases peints grecs et étrusques (1900). In 1905 he began his Cultes, mythes et religions; and in 1909 he published a general sketch of the history of religions under the title of Orpheus. He also translated from the English HC Lea's History of the Inquisition.

Salomon Reinach died in 1932 and was buried in the Cimetière de Montmartre in the Montmartre Quarter of Paris.

Albert Bayet The origin of its name refers to the person of Albert Bayet (1880 - 1961), President of the National Federation of French Press (FNPF) and the National Federation of French Press Freedom (FNPFL) during the 2nd World War , Professor at the Sorbonne, French sociologist.

M.F.A. Aulard History Professor University of Paris (d. 1928)

This brings our list up to 61.

1) G. A. Wells, 2) Robert M. Price, 3) Thomas L. Thompson, 4) Timothy Freke, 5) Peter Gandy, 6) Herman Detering, 7) Alvar Ellegard*, 8) Darrell Doughty, 9) Frank Zindler, 10) Michael Turton, 11) Luigi Cascioli, 12) Michel Onfray, 13) Francesco Carotta, 14) Tom Harpur, 15) Hal Childs, 16), Herbert Cutner, 17) Michael O. Wise, 18) Burton Mack*, 19) Jan Sammer, 20) Arthur M. Rothstein, 21) Michael Martin

Second List: These living writers with academic credentials that I am not sure about (but whose work may be just as important as the above) include:

1) Earl Doherty, 2) Richard Carrier, 3) Archaya S., 4) Joseph Atwill, 5) Ken Humphreys, 6) Harold Liedner, 7) Zane Winter, 8) Gary Courtney, 9) Michael Hoffman, 10) Max Rieser, 11) R.G. Price, 12) Barbara G. Walker

Third List: These deceased 20th century mythicists with academic credentials (although possibly not relevant fields):

1) Georg Morris Cohen Brandes, 2) John (J.M.) Robertson 3) Bertrand Russell, 4) Joseph McCabe 5) Livio C. Stecchini, 6) Thomas Whittaker, 7) John E. Remsburg, 8) Arthur Drews, 9) P. L. Couchoud, 10) John Allegro, 11) van den Bergh van Eysinga, 12) Robert Taylor, 13) Joseph Wheless, 14) Peter Jensen, 15) Gordon Rylands, 16) Guy Fau, 17) Mangasar Mugurditch Mangasarian, 18) Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 19) John E. Remsburg, 20) Marshall J. Gauvin, 21) J.G. Jackson, 22) William Benjamin Smith, 23) S.G.F. Brandon*, 24) Marcel Simon*, 25) Cita Rom Goel, 26) Salomon Reinach, 27) Albert Bayet, 28) M.F.A. Aulard

* A writer who believes that the Jesus of the Gospels is primarily a myth, but thinks there is some kind of historical character extremely different from the Gospel character that the myth is based upon.

GakuseiDon

Would it be fair to say, then, that earlier in the 20th Century, the Jesus Myth idea was looked at seriously by scholars, but it has largely faded away?

If so, it would be interesting to see why it has faded away.

Magdlyn

Because no one wants to believe the Emperor has no clothes.

All those lovely churches and cathedrals. All the use politicians make of religion. All that money going into the collection baskets, the livelihood of all that (child-raping) clergy. All those heathens to feed and "save."

There are plenty of reasons.

PhilosopherJay

Hi GakuseiDon,

I would agree. It does seem that from the late 30's to the 90's, both the quality and quantity of the scholarship in this area dropped quite a bit. My guess would be that a general and almost universal emphasis on hard sciences and technology, and an abandoning or shrinking of soft science (Humanities, History, Sociology, Philosophy, Classics etc.) departments in public higher education during this period had something to do with it.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

dog-on

Just a question;

How much influence does the business world have on institutions of higher learning? Could certain departments, especially at the major universities, needlessly endanger funding levels if they were to get too far out of step with the mainstream, or by pissing off too many alumni?