maryhelena

HISTORY REJECTS THE ASSUMPTION OF A HISTORICAL GOSPEL JESUS FIGURE

Historical artefacts, such as coins, are testimony to the fact that certain individuals were historical figures. That is the bare bones of historical evidence. However, history requires a story; a narrative, to joins up the facts and present a meaningful picture. The picture could be cloudy and unclear or it could be a reasonable explanation of what happened. In the chart that follows, Josephus is the primary source for building that historical narrative. Did Josephus himself, writing after the events, have accurate material to work with? Or is Josephus creating his own narrative - and without a secondary source there is no way to be sure. All one can do is work with his material and question his story when it presents problems.

The chart below has set out Josephan Hasmonean history for Antigonus. It also presents the Josephan history for Philip the Tetrarch. Philo’s story about the mocking of Carabbas and Agrippa I is also used. This chart is the historical backdrop that allows the gospel literary, mythological JC, a veneer of historicity, an ability to reflect historical events. It is this reflection, this veneer of historicity, that has allowed the assumption that the gospel JC figure is a historical figure. That assumption, when considered in the light of history, the Hasmonean and Herodian coins, and that history’s narrative as set down by Josephus and Philo, is unfounded.

HISTORY and Coins.	Philo (died about 50 c.e.) Flaccus	JOSEPHUS: War (about 75 c.e.) Antiquities: (about 94 c.e.)	The composite gospel Jesus figure based upon the historical figures of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus; and Philip the Tetrarch.
King Antigonus: Mattathias: High Priest of the Jews: Hasmonean Bilingual Coins, Hebrew and Greek.		Antigonus enters Jerusalem: Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus's ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish. War: Book 1.ch.13 (40 b.c.)........................Antony came in, and told them that it was for their advantage in the Parthian war that Herod should be king; so they all gave their votes for it. War: Book 1.ch.14 (40 b.c.)	John 18.10; Mark 14.47; Matthew 26.51; Luke 22.50. John and Luke specifying right ear, Mark and Matthew have 'ear'. gJohn stating that Peter cut off the ear the High Priest's servant.
		Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year since he had been made king at Rome; War: Book 1. ch.17 (37 b.c.).. Herod on his own account, in order to take the government from Antigonus, who was declared all enemy at Rome, and that he might himself be king, according to the decree of the Senate. Antiquities Book 14 ch.16	gJohn indicates a three year ministy for JC
Cassius Dio: Antigonus. These people Antony entrusted to one Herod to govern, and Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,—treatment accorded to no other king by the Romans,—and subsequently slew him. Roman History, Book xlix, c.22		Then it was that Antigonus, without any regard to his former or to his present fortune, came down from the citadel, and fell at Sosius's feet, who without pitying him at all, upon the change of his condition, laughed at him beyond measure, and called him Antigona. Yet did he not treat him like a woman, or let him go free, but put him into bonds, and kept him in custody.... Sosius ......went away from Jerusalem, leading Antigonus away in bonds to Antony; then did the axe bring him to his end..War: Book 1.ch.18. ..Antigonus, without regard to either his past or present circumstances, came down from the citadel, and fell down at the feet of Sosius, who took no pity of him, in the change of his fortune, but insulted him beyond measure, and called him Antigone [i.e. a woman, and not a man;] yet did he not treat him as if he were a woman, by letting him go at liberty, but put him into bonds, and kept him in close custody.......	The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. Jesus flogged: John 19:1; Mark 15:15; Matthew 27:26. JC crucified. Trilinqual sign over cross: Aramaic, Latin and Greek. gJohn 19.19-21. JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Other variations: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS; THE KING OF THE JEWS; THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
		...and then but Herod was afraid lest Antigonus should be kept in prison [only] by Antony, and that when he was carried to Rome by him, he might get his cause to be heard by the senate, and might demonstrate, as he was himself of the royal blood, and Herod but a private man, that therefore it belonged to his sons however to have the kingdom, on account of the family they were of, in case he had himself offended the Romans by what he had done. Out of Herod's fear of this it was that he, by giving Antony a great deal of money, endeavored to persuade him to have Antigonus slain. Antiquities: Book 14 ch.16. (Slavonic Josephus has the teachers of the Law giving the money to Pilate...)	Judas betrays JC for 30 pieces of silver. Matthew 27.3
		Now when Antony had received Antigonus as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph; but when he heard that the nation grew seditious, and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good-will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch, for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. (37 b.c.) Antiquities: Book 15 ch.1	Acts: 11:16. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Philip the Tetrarch: Herodian Coins		When Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Cesarea. He also advanced the village Bethsaids, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, Antiquities: Book 18 ch.2	John 1:43-45. Philip, Andrew and Peter come from Bethsaida. Around the villages of Casearea Phillipi JC asked the disciples who do people say he is. Peter says: "You are the Messiah". Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16: 13-16.
		(about 34 c.e.)About this time it was that Philip, Herod's ' brother, departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty- seven years. He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him; he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint: he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp. His principality Tiberius took, (for he left no sons behind him,) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave order that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrachy. Antiquities: Book 18 ch.4	disciples/apostles: John 6:70; Mark 3:14; Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13. A rich man from Arimathea, Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. Matthew 27:57-59. Mark 15:43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. JC crucified during rule of Pilate - which ends in 36 c.e.
Agrippa I (d.44 c.e.) Herodian Coins.	The mocking of Carabbas:... a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick ..., he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, ....Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians;..when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disguisedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king.		The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. ..... The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him............Pilate released Barabbas.

While the chart has set down the historical backdrop in which to view the gospel JC figure, the chart is not the whole JC story. That story goes on to include OT midrash and mythological elements. However, without the historical backdrop, the gospel JC story would have had no legs upon which to run; no legs to allow it to be viewed as a plausible historical account. Crucified itinerate carpenters might well present historical possibilities and assumptions. However, belief in historical possibilities is something down the line, not something immediate. The immediate reality does not allow for possibilities - it allows only for what reality is. And that is historical reality not assumptions or possibilities.

The gospel JC story is not history; it is a mythologizing of history; an interpretation of history; salvation history. History viewed through a Jewish philosophical and a prophetic lens.

judge

(a)"he resolved to behead him at Antioch,"

(b)The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

So (b) is the mythologising of (a)...uh huh.

(a)Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year

(b)gJohn indicates a three year ministy for JC

(b) is mythologising (a)..??


Yes, let's ask Bart why there are no coins of Jesus.

(Bart Simpson that is)

maryhelena

Come now......I'm talking history here, historical figures. If you want a flesh and blood gospel Jesus - OK. But then give up on this search for historical evidence - there is none. And that will have to be the fall-back position of the JC historicists - give up claims for historicity - and opt for a flesh and blood figure. Thats the 'safe' position - but it's also a position of faith, of wishful thinking, not logic.

judge

Why would it..how can it matter to me if there was one? Explain please.

.

No, there is some. And there probably existed the guy "jesus".

Really who gives a fuck? How can it possibly matter whether he existed. But if we get rid of all the people with chips on theirn shoulders and just look at what we have there are some scraps of evidence to suggest he was.

BUT..its not about that. Its about thinking clearly and rationally, even if we aren't religious.
we all know that religious peoiple have enormous prejudices but non religious and anti-religious people have them too. And if we abandon rational exploartion in one area just cos we have some "issue" about religion then what is to stop us doing it everywhere?

maryhelena

I'll repost these quotes from an earlier post: " Myth In Old Testament Interpretation:"; J.W. Rogerson. (now out of print, I think).

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(1) Myths are attempts to explain things. The things so explained can be many and various, including the origin, nature and functioning of the world; the origin of social organisation; social habits and customs; and religious beliefs and practices. Myths may also seek to explain unusual natural phenomena, and the cause of historical events.

(2) Myths arise from personifications of natural phenomena.

(3) Myths are stories arising from misunderstood descriptions of the working of nature.

(4) Myths are narratives about humans and human events, but the narratives are in fact in the first instance derived from astral or similar phenomena.

(5) Myth is a mode of cognition distinct from empirical consciousness.

(6) A myth is a text inextricably bound up with a rite. The performance of the myth/ritual achieves or preserves the well-being of man and the world.

(7) A myth is a text less closely connected with a rite, designed possibly to interest the worshipper or to explain the meaning of a rite where the original meaning and purpose of the latter has been forgotten.

(8) A myth is one of a series of narratives which, taken together, enable primitives to solve problems at a level below that of conscious thought by the blurring of binary oppositions.

(9) A myth is a narrative which expresses the tensions of a primary existential symbolism.

10) A myth is a single story, or longer stretch of narrative, which expresses the ideals, hopes and faith of a people. This view does not seem to be tied to any particular epistemology, or to be limited to primitives or ancients. It would underlie the position of a folkorist such as Gaster; it would embrace that phenomenon which has been called the mythologising of history; it was certainly defended by de Wette in his mythical understanding and interpretation of the whole Pentateuch.

(11) Myth is a necessary way of speaking of transcendent reality.

(12) A myth is a story about the gods.

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Check out myth #10

maryhelena

I must explain why it should matter to you whether or not there was a historical gospel JC? Each to his own - find your own reasons for or against....:huh:
Perhaps a dozen or more guys by the name of "jesus"....:huh:
If you don't give a 'fuck' - why bother replying to my post???

I have no 'issues' about religion.

And thinking clearly, rationally and logically is what I try my best to do.

judge

Mary Helena..are you serious about these points? or is it a joke?
I'm really not sure. The connection seems so tenuous as to be ridiculous.

a)"he resolved to behead him at Antioch,"

(b)The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

So (b) is the mythologising of (a)...uh huh.

(a)Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year

(b)gJohn indicates a three year ministy for JC

(b) is mythologising (a)..??

maryhelena

Dead serious.

The gospel JC story is a mythologizing of history; specific history relating to the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, and Philip the Tetrarch. Philip who lived during the gospel JC time frame.

Why not consider that history on it's own. Then decide to write a condensed version of it. Using one literary figure to carry your reconstruction.

tanya

Thank you maryhelena, for this excellent chart.

In addition to many other useful bits, on it, I had never before thought about the absence of any coin bearing the likeness of the Jewish rabbi.

But, one must inquire, are there any coins bearing the likeness of ANY Jewish figure from a couple thousand years ago?

Here are some coins of Jesus from the 11th century....

I don't wish to belabor the point, but I do find fault with your several suggestions about the proper definition of "myth". I find that your elaboration simply confounds, rather than clarifies, the definition.

Myth is juxtaposed to reality. Myth is fiction that is based upon an activity, or a description, involving, or requiring, supernatural behaviour.

"Myth" has nothing to do with "story", or "story line". Some stories indeed do have mythical content. The point however, is that one is not obliged to recount an entire story, while sitting around the campfire, to earn the category of "myth".

ONE SENTENCE suffices.

Yes, the goodnews of Mark, is a myth. Yes, it is a story. No, it is not a myth BECAUSE it is a story. It is a myth, because of the first sentence.

Strip away all the rest of Mark, save that first sentence, with its reference to Jesus as son of god, and the newly created, single sentence version of the Gospel of Mark remains MYTH.

One can prove this simple assertion, by creating a computer program to analyze text and distinguish mythical from historical content.

Are you going to require that such a computer program identify text under investigation as mythical, only if the text fulfills the criteria you have spelled out, in this chart?

I will not be able to write such a program. I cannot write such a program, for I comprehend not, how to concoct an algorithm representing your definition of "myth", as required to convert the algorithm to computer code for implementation. Your definition is not simply too complex, too verbose, and too convoluted. Your definition, maryhelena, is far too subjective.

My definition may be deficient, too, but at least it is sufficiently simple, that one can hope to devise an algorithm capable of searching through Greek text, to locate passages indicative of supernatural content.

maryhelena

tanya - It's judge that brought up the issue of coins for Jesus ???? For heavens sake - what on earth has such a suggestion got to do with my chart - a chart about historical figures???

tanya - The definitions of myth above are not from me. The quotes are referenced. If you find fault with these quotes - so be it. I find them useful.