Freethought & Rationalism Archive

avi · 12-17-2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The phrase kata sarka has no implications of genuine or real McCoy or authentic. And kata pneuma does not mean imaginary.

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks Toto, I appreciate your input.

I believe that you accept Jeffrey's admonition to regard "kata sarka" as idiomatic, yes? Well, if so, then you perhaps understand why I translate kata sarka as meaning genuine, i.e. something that one can touch, as for instance, touching living flesh. We juxtapose this phrase to kata pneuma, its antithesis, meaning something we can not touch.

Pneuma here refers to air, something which is invisible, hence extant only in our minds, i.e. "imaginary". Correct me, if I err, but wasn't it Spallanzani, Italian Catholic who first demonstrated the presence of germs in the air? He had some trouble to convince folks, because germs are invisible. I think, if I remember correctly, that it was Pasteur who improved on Spallanzani's experiment by heating the glass tube furnishing air to the culture broth, so that it acquired an S shape, permitting air to enter, but denying bacteria entrance.....Something which is invisible, is imaginary, except to those who can think beyond the flesh....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In this post-Enlightenment time, we all believe in physical reality, even those of us who claim to be spiritual or religious. This is not the case for the first century.

Oh. I am not trying here, to argue that you err, but, I would like to sound a note of caution regarding our casual interpretation of Greek thinking, from the time of Aristotle. I don't know the percentages, but I would not be surprised to learn that there existed a higher literacy rate among the Greeks of 200 BCE, compared with citizens of USA this day.

During the past four decades, I have not found any student who was capable of figuring out how to compute the circumference of the earth, using only two pieces of wood, as Eratosthenes accomplished 2200 years ago. I urge you to avoid thinking of us as "modern", and them as "primitive".

cheers,
avi

Toto · 12-17-2009, 09:10 PM

pneuma is breath or spirit (or soul). It might be invisible, but not exactly imaginary, especially in the pejorative sense that we use that word today.

There is a special vocabulary involved here that may be hard to translate - pneumatic/psychic.

aa5874 · 12-17-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

...... Romans 1:3, is best translated, into English, as indicating that David, and no one else, furnished the living sperm to impregnate Mary.

Do you mean King David who supposedly lived hundreds of years before the so-called mother of Jesus?

It would appear that David in Romans referred to King David or David the Psalmist.

avi · 12-18-2009, 05:47 AM

Up to this point, we have discussed the English translation of Romans 1:3, using the Hort/Westcott version of the Greek original.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans 1:1-4:

1:1
pauloV douloV ihsou cristou klhtoV apostoloV afwrismenoV eiV euaggelion qeou
2
o proephggeilato dia twn profhtwn autou en grafaiV agiaiV
3
peri tou uiou autou tou genomenou ek spermatoV dauid kata sarka
4
tou orisqentoV uiou qeou en dunamei kata pneuma agiwsunhV ex anastasewV nekrwn ihsou cristou tou kuriou hmwn

The criticisms of my translation

Quote:

Concerning his son, who was made (or born) of the sperm of David, himself (i.e. "in the flesh")

focus not only on my apparent misinterpretation of ek spermatoV, which I translate as sperm of David, but which everyone else on the planet earth translates as "house of David", but also on kata sarka, which I translate as "David's flesh", i.e. his genuine sperm, and which the other participants claim has no connection with David, instead modifying "his son", tou uiou, notwithstanding its location in the sentence, immediately after David's name.

One of the most often repeated criticisms of my translation, is that I have thus far failed to take into account, the context of Romans 1:3, i.e. not only with regard to the broader question of how it fits into the overall gospel narrative, but, more importantly, how this particular passage relates to adjacent text, within Romans, itself.

To investigate the situation further, I went to Codex Sinaiticus, and below print the first four verses from Romans 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codex Sinaiticus

1:1
παυλοϲ*δουλοϲ*ιυ* χυ*κλητοϲ*αποϲτο λοϲ*αφωριϲμενοϲ* ειϲ*ευαγγελιον*θυ*
2
ο*προεπηγγιλατο* δια*των*προφητω* αυτου*εν*γραφαιϲ*
3
αγιαιϲ*περι*του*ϋϊου* αυτου*του*γενομενου*εκ*ϲπερ ματοϲ*
4
δαδ*κατα*ϲαρκα*του* οριϲθεντοϲ*ϋϊου*θυ* εν*δυναμι*κατα*πνα* αγιωϲυνηϲ*εξ*ανα
ϲταϲεωϲ*νεκρων* ιυ*χυ*του*κυ*ημω*

I was a tiny bit surprised to read:
a. both David, and kata sarka appear in verse 4, not verse three, as I had believed. I am unsure about the implication of that observation, it may require some thought, but perhaps it undercuts at least one of my arguments....
b. David's name is spelled "δαδ". Is that a common finding? I know that Textus Receptus writes "Dabid", confounding "b" and "v", perhaps the origin of the frustrating Spanish mispronunciation of the same two letters? Is "dad" the common way of writing David, referring to King David, in Septuagint? Does it follow some Hebrew tradition, or is it a first century invention?
c. regarding word order: I repeat my former question: Did writers of the first century employ this order, typically:
nounA, nounB, nounC kata sarka --> with kata sarka describing nounB?

avi

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-18-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

From my [Greek] dictionary:

κατά (+ genitive) (kata)

1. downwards, down from
2. into
3. against

κατά (+ accusative) (kata)

1. downwards
2. along, through, in
3. towards
4. during
5. for, for the purpose of
6. according to, in conformity with

What dictionary is this from? And what notes and other data appear within it with respect to κατά (+ accusative) #2 (i.e., along, through, in)?

And isn't it interesting that up to now Avi has refused to accept "the opinions" of scholars on the matter of the meaning of the Greek terms in Rom. 1-4 , but now eagerly (and uncritically) does so when one such "opinion" appears to agree with what already believes?

It's also interesting not only that he sees a definite article where there is none in the expression in question, but that he has not yet produced a single instance of any Greek writer using κατά + accusative to signify "in".

Why is that, do you think?

FWIW, here's the entry on κατά from LSJ: I see no corroboration there of your dictionary's note that κατά with the accusative means "in".

Quote:

κατά [κα^τα^], poet. καταί acc. to A.D.Synt.309.28, found in Compds., as καταιβάτης: Prep. with gen. or acc.:—
A. downwards.

A. WITH GEN.,
I. denoting motion from above, down from, βῆ δὲ κατ᾽ Οὐλύμποιο καρήνων, κατ᾽ Ἰδαίων ὀρέων, βαλέειν κ. πέτρης, Il. 22.187, 16.677, Od.14.399; “κατ᾽ οὐρανοῦ εἰλήλουθας” Il.6.128; καθ᾽ ἵππων ἀΐξαντε ib.232; “δάκρυα . . κ. βλεφάρων Χαμάδις ῥέε” 17.438; “ἵεις σαυτὸν κ. τοῦ τείχους” Ar.V.355; “ἁλόμενοι κ. τῆς πέτρας” X.An.4.2.17; “κ. τῶν πετρῶν ὦσαι” Pl.Phdr.229c; “κ. κρημνῶν ῥιφέντες” Id.Lg.944a:— for κατ᾽ ἄκρης v. ἄκρα: “Μοῖσα κ. στόματος Χέε νέκταρ” Theoc.7.82 (but perh. in sense 11.1).

II. denoting downward motion,

1. down upon or over, “κ. Χθονὸς ὄμματα πήξας” Il.3.217; of the dying, κατὰ . . ὀφθαλμῶν κέχυτ᾽ ἀχλύς a cloud settled upon the eyes, 5.696, cf. 20.321; “τὸν δὲ κατ᾽ ὀφθαλμῶν . . νὺξ ἐκάλυψεν” 13.580; φᾶρος κὰκ κεφαλῆς εἴρυσσε down over . . , Od.8.85; [κόπρος] “κ. σπείους κέχυτο . . πολλή” 9.330; ὕδωρ κ. Χειρός, v. Χείρ; μύρον κ. τῆς κεφαλῆς καταχέαντες Pl.R.398a; “νάρκη μου κ. τῆς Χειρὸς καταχεῖται” Ar.V.713; “κ. τῆς τραπέζης καταπάσας τέφραν” Id.Nu.177; ξαίνειν κ. τοῦ νώτου πολλὰς [πληγάς] D.19.197; “ἐσκεδασμένοι κ. τῆς Χώρας” Plb.1.17.10; “οἱ κ. νώτου πονοῦντες” Id.3.19.7; “ῥόπαλον ἤλασα κὰκ κεφαλῆς” Theoc.25.256; κ. κόρρης παίειν, = ἐπὶ κόρρης, Luc.Cat.12, al.
b. Geom., along, upon, πίπτειν κατ᾽ [εὐθείας] Archim.Sph.Cyl.1 Def.2; αἱ γωνίαι κ. κύκλων περιφερειῶν ἐνεχθήσονται will move on . . , ib.1.23, al., cf. Aristarch.Sam.1.

2. down into, “νέκταρ στάξε κ. ῥινῶν” Il.19.39; of a dart, “κ. γαίης ᾤχετο” 13.504, etc.; “ἔθηκε κατ᾽ ὄχθης μείλινον ἔγχος” 21.172; “ψυχὴ κ. Χθονὸς ᾤχετο” 23.100; κ. γᾶς underground, Pi.O.2.59; κατ᾽ ὕδατος under water, Hdt.2.149; [ποταμὸς] “δὺς κ. τῆς γῆς” Pl.Phd. 113c, cf. Ti.25d; “κ. γῆς σύμεναι” A.Eu.1007 (anap.); κ. Χθονὸς κρύψαι to bury. S.Ant.24; ὁ κ. γῆς one dead and buried, X.Cyr.4.6.5; “οἱ κ. Χθονὸς θεοί” A.Pers.689, etc.; “θεοὶ<οἱ> κ. γᾶς” Id.Ch.475 (lyr.), etc.; so κ. θαλάσσης ἀφανίζεσθαι, καταδεδυκέναι, Hdt.7.6,235; also βᾶτε κατ᾽ ἀντιθύρων go down by or through . . , S.El.1433.

3. later, towards a point, τοξεύειν κ. σκοποῦ to shoot at, Hdn.6.7.8; “κατ᾽ ἰχνῶν τινος ὁδεύειν” Luc.Rh.Pr.9.

4. of vows or oaths, by, “καθ᾽ ἡμῶν ὀμνύναι” D.29.26, cf. 54.38; “ἐπιορκήσασα κ. τῶν παίδων” Lys.32.13; esp. of the victims, etc., over which the oath is taken, ὀμνυόντων τὸν ἐπιχώριον ὅρκον καθ᾽ ἱερῶν τελείων Foed. ap. Th.5.47, cf. Arist.Ath.29.5, Foed.Delph.Pell.1A9, etc.; “κ. τῶν νικητηρίων εὐξάμενοι” D.Ep.1.16; also κατ᾽ ἐξωλείας ὀμνύναι to imprecate destruction on oneself, Id.21.119; “κατ᾽ ἐξ. ἐπιορκεῖν” Id.57.22.

b. to make a vow towards, i.e. make a vow of offering . . , “κ. Χιλίων εὐχὴν ποιήσασθαι Χιμάρων” Ar. Eq.660.

5. in hostile sense, against, A.Ch.221, S.Aj.304, etc.; “κ. πάντων φύεσθαι” D.18.19; esp. of judges giving sentence against a person, A.Th.198, S.Aj.449, etc.; “ψεύδεσθαι κατά τινος” Lys.22.7; “λέγειν κατά τινος κακά” S.Ph.65, cf. X.HG1.5.2, etc.; of speeches, [λόγος] κ. Μειδίου, etc. (opp. πρὸς Λεπτίνην, in reply to L.); “δῶρα εἰληφέναι κατά τινος” Din.3.6, cf. 18.

6. of Time,for, “μισθοῦν κ. εἴκοσι ἐτῶν” IG12.94.37; κ. βίου for life, Tab.Heracl.1.50; “κὰπ παντὸς Χρόνοι” IG9(2).517.20 (Larissa) (but “κ. παντὸς τοῦ Χρόνου σκέψασθε” D. 22.72 falls under 7); “κ. παντὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος ἀείμνηστον” Lycurg.7.

7. in respect of, concerning, “μὴ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπων σκόπει μόνον τοῦτο” Pl. Phd.70d; “κ. τῶν ἄλλων τεχνῶν τοιαῦτα εὑρήσομεν” Id.Sph.253b; οἱ κ. Δημοσθένους ἔπαινοι praises bestowed on D., Aeschin.3.50; ἐρεῖν or λέγειν κατά τινος to say of one, Pl.Ap.37b, Prt.323b, etc.; “εἰ κ. θηλείας φαίης” A.D.Synt.198.10; “εἴπερ ἕν γέ τι ζητεῖς κ. πάντων” Pl.Men. 73d, cf. 74b; “ὅπερ εἴρηται καθόλου κ. πασῶν τῶν πολιτειῶν” Arist.Pol. 1307b2; freq. in the Logic of Arist., κατά τινος λέγεσθαι or κατηγορεῖσθαι to be predicated of . . , Int.16b10, Cat.1b10, etc.; καταφῆσαί (or ἀποφῆσαί） τι κατά τινος to affirm (or deny) of . . , Metaph.1007b21; so “κ. τινὸς ὑπάρχειν” Int.16b13: and in Adv. καθόλου (q.v.).

B. WITH Acc.,

I. of motion downwards, κ. ῥόον down stream, Od.14.254, Il.12.33; opp. ἀνὰ τὸν ποταμόν, Hdt.2.96; κ. τὸν ποταμόν, κ. τὸ ὑδάτιον, Id.1.194, Pl.Phdr.229a; κατ᾽ οὖρον ἰέναι, ῥεῖν, down (i.e. with) the wind, A.Th.690, S.Tr.468; κ. πνεῦμα, κατ᾽ ἄνεμον ἵστασθαι to leeward, Arist.HA535a19, 560b13, Dsc.4.153.

2. with or without signf. of motion, on, over, throughout a space, freq. in Hom., “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος” Od.1.344; κατ᾽ Ἀχαΐδα, κ. Τροίην, Il.11.770, 9.329; “κατ᾽ ἠερόεντα κέλευθα” Od.20.64; κ. πόντον, κῦμα, ὕλην, Il.4.276, 6.136, 3.151; “κ. πτόλιν” Od.2.383; κ. ἄστυ, οἶκον, Il.18.286, 6.56; κ. ὅμιλον, στρατόν, 3.36, 1.229; κ. κλισίας τε νέας τε ib.487; “πόλεμον κάτα δακρυόεντα” 17.512; κ. ὑσμίνην, μόθον, κλόνον, 5.84, 18.159, 16.331; “τὸ ὕδωρ κ. τοὺς ταφροὺς ἐχώρει” X.Cyr.7.5.16, etc. (in later Gr.of motion to a place, “κ. τὴν Ἰταλίαν” Zos.3.1); “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα” A.Ag.578; “κ. πτόλιν” Id.Th.6; “αἱ σκηναὶ αἱ κ. τὴν ἀγοράν” D.18.169; “τὰ κατ᾽ ἀγροὺς Διονύσια” Aeschin.1.157, etc.; “κ. τὸ προάστιον” Hdt.3.54; “τύμβον κατ᾽ αὐτόν” A. Th.528, cf. Supp.869 (lyr.): Geom., at a point, Euc.1.1,al.; τέμνειν [σφαῖραν] κ. κύκλον in a circle, Archim.Aren.1.17; also, in the region of, “οἱ κ. τὸν ἥλιον γινόμενοι ἀστέρες” Gem.12.7: freq. in Hom. in describing the place of a wound, βαλεῖν κ. στῆθος, γαστέρα, etc., Il.11.108, 16.465, al.; “νύξε κ. δεξιὸν ὦμον” 5.46; “οὔτασε κατ᾽ ἰσχίον” 11.339; so βαλεῖν κατ᾽ ἀσπίδα, κ. ζωστῆρα, 5.537,615; βέλος κ. καίριον ἦλθεν struck upon a vital part, v.l. in 11.439: metaph., “ἄχος κ. φρένα τύψε” 19.125: generally, κ. φρένα καὶ κατὰ θυμόν in heart and soul, 4.163, al.

3. opposite, over against, “κ. Σινώπην πόλιν” Hdt.1.76, cf. 2.148, Th.2.30, etc.; “ἀνὴρ κατ᾽ ἄνδρα” A.Th.505; “μολὼν . . μοι κ. στόμα” Id.Ch.573; “κατ᾽ ὀφθαλμούς τινος” LXX 2 Ki.12.11; “οἱ μὲν Ἀθηναῖοι κ. Λακεδαιμονίους ἐγένοντο” X.HG4.2.18; κατ᾽ Ἀχαιοὺς ἀντετάχθησαν ibid.; “ἐν συμποσίῳ . . , περίμενε, μέχρις ἂν γένηται κατὰ σέ” Epict.Ench. 15, cf. D.L.7.108.

II. distributively, of a whole divided into parts, κρῖν᾽ ἄνδρας κ. φῦλα, κ. φρήτρας by tribes, by clans, Il.2.362; κ. σφέας μαχέονται by themselves, separately, ib.366, cf. Th.4.64; “ἐσκήνουν κ. τάξεις” X.Cyr.2.1.25; “αὐτὴ καθ᾽ αὑτήν” A.Pr.1013; κ. κώμας κατοικημένοι in separate villages, Hdt.1.96; κατ᾽ ἑωυτοὺς ἕκαστοι ἐτράποντο each to his own home, Id.5.15; κ. πόλεις ἀποπλεῦσαι, διαλυθῆναι, Th.1.89, 3.1: “στρατιὰ κ. ἕνδεκα μέρη κεκοσμημένη” Pl.Phdr.247a; later “οἱ κατ᾽ ἄνδρα λόγοι” PLond.2.259.72 (i A. D.), cf. D.Chr.32.6, etc.; “ἡ κατ᾽ οἰκίαν ἀπογραφή” PLond.3.904.20(ii A.D.), etc.; κατ᾽ ἔπος word by word, Ar.Ra.802; κατ᾽ ὄνομα individually, 3 Ep.Jo.15, etc.; παῖδα κ. κρήνην at each fount a boy, Lyr.Alex.Adesp.37.13, cf. POxy 2108.9 (iii A.D.).

2. of Time, καθ᾽ ἡμέραν, κατ᾽ ἦμαρ, day by day, daily, v. ἡμέρα 111; καθ᾽ ἑνιαυτόν, κατ᾽ ἔτος, Test.Epict.6.24, Ev.Luc.2.41, etc.; “κ. μῆνα” POxy.275.18 (i A.D.).

3. of Numbers, by so many at a time, καθ᾽ ἕνα one at a time, individually, Hdt.7.104 (later “τὸ καθ᾽ ἕν” detailed list, PTeb.47.34 (ii B.C.), etc.); κ. μίαν τε καὶ δύο by ones and twos, Hdt.4.113; “δύο μνέαι τεταγμέναι κατ᾽ ἄνδρα αἰχμάλωτον ἕκαστον” Id.6.79; “ἐκ τῶν συμμάχων ἐξελέγετο κατ᾽ ὀλίγους” Id.8.113; κ. τὰς πέντε καὶ εἴκοσι μνᾶς πεντακοσίας δραχμὰς εἰσφέρειν to pay 500 drachmae on every 25 minae, D.27.7; “κ. διακοσίας καὶ τριακοσίας ὁμοῦ τι τάλαντον διακεχρημένον” in separate sums of 200 and 300 drachmae, Id.27.11; of ships, κ. μίαν (sc. ναῦν) in column, Th.2.90; “κ. μίαν ναῦν ἐπιτάττειν” Plb.1.26.12, cf. Th.2.84: Geom., μετρεῖν, μετρεισθαι κατά . . , measure, be measured a certain number of times, Euc.7 Def.8,9,al.; μετρεῖν κ. τὰς ἐν τῷ Β μονάδας as many times as there are units in B, Id.7.16.

III. of direction towards an object or purpose, πλεῖν κ. πρῆξιν on a business, for or after a matter, Od. 3.72, 9.253; πλάζεσθαι κ. ληΐδα to rove in search of booty, 3.106; κ. “ληΐην ἐκπλῶσαι” Hdt.2.152; “ἔβη κ. δαῖτα” Il.1.424; “ἐπιδημεῖν κατ᾽ ἐμπορίαν” IG22.141.32, cf. Arist.Ath.11.1; κ. Χρέος τινὸς ἐλθεῖν come to seek his help, consult him, Od.11.479, etc.; “ἵεται κ. τὴν φωνήν” Hdt.2.70; κ. θέαν ἥκειν to have come for the purpose of seeing, Th.6.31; “κ. πλοῦν ἤδη ὤν” Id.7.31; “καθ᾽ ἁρπαγὴν ἐσκεδασμένοι” X.An.3.5.2; κ. τί; for what purpose? why? Ar.Nu.239.

2. of pursuit, “κ. πόδας τινὸς ἐλαύνειν” Hdt.9.89; simply κ. τινά after him, Id.1.84; “ἰέναι κ. τοὺς ἄλλους” Id.9.53; κατ᾽ ἴχνος on the track, S.Aj.32, A.Ag.695 (lyr.); “ὥσπερ κατ᾽ ἴχνη κ. τὰ νῦν εἰρημένα ζῆν” Pl.Phd.115b.

3. Geom., in adverbial phrases, κ. κάθετον in the same vertical line, Archim. Quadr.6; κατ᾽ εὐθεῖάν τινι in the same straight line with . . , Papp. 58.7.

IV. of fitness or conformity, in accordance with, “κ. θυμόν” Il.1.136; καθ᾽ ἡμέτερον νόον after our liking, 9.108; “κ. νόον πρήξωμεν” Hdt.4.97; κ. μοῖραν as is meet and right, Il.1.286; κατ᾽ αἶσαν, κ. κόσμον, 10.445,472; “κ. νόμον” Hes.Th.417; “κὰν νόμον” Pi.O.8.78; “κ. τοὺς νόμους” IG22.1227.15; αἰτίαν καθ᾽ ἥντινα for what cause, A.Pr. 228; κατ᾽ ἔχθραν, κ. φθόνον, for (i.e. because of) hatred, envy, Id.Supp.336, Eu.686; καθ᾽ ἡδονήν τι δρᾶν, ποιεῖν, do as one pleases, Th. 2.37,53; “κ. τὸ ἔχθος τὸ Θεσσαλῶν” Hdt.8.30, cf. 9.38; κ. φιλίαν, κατ᾽ ἔχθος, Th.1.60, 103, etc.; κατ᾽ ἄλλο μὲν οὐδέν, ὅτι δέ . . for no other reason but that . . , Pl.Phdr.229d; κ. δύναμιν to the best of one's power, Hdt.3.142, etc. (κὰδ δ. Hes.Op.336); κ. τρόπον διοικεῖν arrange suitably, Isoc.2.6,al.; κατ᾽ εὐνοίην with goodwill, Hdt.6.108; “κ. τὰ παρηγγελμένα” X.An.2.2.8, etc.; in quotations, according to, “κατ᾽ Αἰσχύλον” Ar.Th.134; “κ. Πίνδαρον” Pl.Phdr.227b, etc.

2. in relation to, concerning, τὰ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους = τὰ ἀνθρώπινα, A.Eu.930, 310; “τὰ κ. τὸν Τέλλον” Hdt.1.31; τὰ κ. τὴν Κύρου τελευτήν ib.214; τὰ κ. πόλεμον military matters, Aeschin.1.181; αἱ κ. τὴν πόλιν οἰκονομίαι (opp. αἱ πολεμικαὶ πράξεις) the management of public affairs, Din. 1.97; “τὰ κ. τὰς θυσίας” SIG506.7(Delph., iii B.C.); so τὸ κατ᾽ ὑμέας as far as concerns you, Hdt.7.158; τὸ κατ᾽ ἐμέ as far as I am concerned, D.18.247; κ. τοῦτο in this respect, Hdt.5.3, etc.; κ. ταὐτά in the same way, Id.2.20; καθ᾽ ὅτι so far as, Th.1.82, etc.

3. in Comparisons, corresponding with, after the fashion of, κρομύοιο λοπὸν κ. like the coat of an onion, dub. in Od.19.233; “μέλος κ. Φοίνισσαν ἐμπολὰν πέμπεται” Pi.P.2.67; κ. Μιθραδάτην answering to the description of him, Hdt.1.121; τὴν ἰδέαν κ. πνιγέα like an oven in appearance, Ar.Av.1001; κηδεῦσαι καθ᾽ ἑαυτόν to marry in one's own rank of life, A.Pr.890; “οὐ κατ᾽ ἄνθρωπον φρονεῖν” Id.Th.425; “λέγω κατ᾽ ἄνδρα, μὴ θεόν, σέβειν ἐμέ” Id.Ag.925; οὐ κατὰ σέ none of your sort, Chionid.1 (but ἵνα προσείπω σε κατὰ σέ to address you in your own style, Pl.Grg.467c); “τὸ κατ᾽ ἐμὲ καὶ οὐ κατ᾽ ἐμέ” Arr.Epict.1.28.5; “οὐ κ. τὰς Μειδίου λῃτουργίας” D.21.169; “ἡ βασιλεία κ. τὴν ἀριστοκρατίαν ἐστί” Arist.Pol.1310b3: freq. after a Comp., “μέζων ἢ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπων φύσιν” Hdt.8.38, cf. Pl.Ap.20e, etc.; μείζω ἢ κ. δάκρυα too great for tears, Th.7.75; ἤθεα βαθύτερα ἢ κ. Θρήϊκας morerefined than was common among the Thracians, Hdt.4.95.

V. by the favour of a god, etc., “κ. δαίμονα” Pi.O.9.28, cf. P.8.68; “κ. θεῖον” Ar.Eq.147 codd. (κ. θεὸν Cobet); “κ. τύχην τινά” D.48.24.
VI. of round numbers (v. infr. v11.2), nearly, about, “κ. Χίλια ἑξακόσια ἔτεα” 1600 years more or less, Hdt.2.145, cf. 6.44, al.; κατ᾽ οὐδέν next to nothing, Pl.Plt.302b.

VII. of Time, during or in the course of a period, “κ. τὸν πόλεμον” Hdt.7.137; καθ᾽ ἡμέραν, κατ᾽ ἦμαρ, by day, A. Ch.818, Ag.668; “κατ᾽ εὐφρόνην” Id.Pers.221; κ. Χειμῶνα, κ. θερείαν, PLille1r14 (iii B.C.), PTeb.27.60 (ii B.C.).

2. about, “κ. τὸν αὐτὸν τοῦτον Χρόνον” Hdt.3.131, etc.; “κ. τοὺς θανάτους τῶν βασιλέων” Id.6.58; esp. with names of persons, κ. Ἄμασιν βασιλεύοντα about the time of Amasis, Id.2.134; “κ. τὸν κ. Κροῖσον Χρόνον” Id.1.67; οἱ κατ᾽ ἐκεῖνον (sc. τὸν Ἀλκιβιάδην）“ ὑμέτεροι πρόγονοι” D.21.146 (v.l. κατ᾽ ἐκ. τὸν Χρόνον）“; κ. τοὺς Ἡρακλείδας” X.Lac.10.8; οἱ καθ᾽ ἑαυτοὺς ἄνθρωποι their contemporaries, Id.Mem.3.5.10.

3. καθ᾽ ἕτος this year, SIG 284.24 (Erythrae, iv B.C.), OGI458.64 (i B.C./iA.D.), CIG3641b5,38 (Lampsacus).

VIII. periphrastically with abstract Subst., κατ᾽ ἡσυχίην, κ. τάχος, = ἡσύχως, ταχέως, Hdt.1.9,7.178; κ. κράτος by force, X.HG2.1.19, etc.; κ. μέρος partially, Arist.Po.1456a16; individually, severally, Pl.Tht.157b, Lg.835a; κ. φύσιν naturally, Hdt. 2.38, Pl.R.428e; κ. τὴν τέχνην skilfully, Luc.DDeor.20.7; οὔτ᾽ ἐμοὶ λέγειν καθ᾽ ἡδονήν [ἐστι] it is not pleasant for me to tell you, A.Pr.263.

C. Position: κατά may follow both its cases, and is then written with anastr. κάτα, as Il.20.221, etc.; so also in tmesi, when it follows its Verb, 17.91.

D. abs. as ADV. in all the above senses, esp. like κάτω, downwards, from above, down, freq. in Hom.

Jeffrey

spin · 12-18-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

FWIW, here's the entry on κατά from LSJ: I see no corroboration there of your dictionary's note that κατά with the accusative means "in".

Quote:

κατά [κα^τα^], poet. καταί acc. to A.D.Synt.309.28, found in Compds., as καταιβάτης: Prep. with gen. or acc.:—
A. downwards.

A. WITH GEN.,
I. denoting motion from above, down from, βῆ δὲ κατ᾽ Οὐλύμποιο καρήνων, κατ᾽ Ἰδαίων ὀρέων, βαλέειν κ. πέτρης, Il. 22.187, 16.677, Od.14.399; “κατ᾽ οὐρανοῦ εἰλήλουθας” Il.6.128; καθ᾽ ἵππων ἀΐξαντε ib.232; “δάκρυα . . κ. βλεφάρων Χαμάδις ῥέε” 17.438; “ἵεις σαυτὸν κ. τοῦ τείχους” Ar.V.355; “ἁλόμενοι κ. τῆς πέτρας” X.An.4.2.17; “κ. τῶν πετρῶν ὦσαι” Pl.Phdr.229c; “κ. κρημνῶν ῥιφέντες” Id.Lg.944a:— for κατ᾽ ἄκρης v. ἄκρα: “Μοῖσα κ. στόματος Χέε νέκταρ” Theoc.7.82 (but perh. in sense 11.1).

II. denoting downward motion,

1. down upon or over, “κ. Χθονὸς ὄμματα πήξας” Il.3.217; of the dying, κατὰ . . ὀφθαλμῶν κέχυτ᾽ ἀχλύς a cloud settled upon the eyes, 5.696, cf. 20.321; “τὸν δὲ κατ᾽ ὀφθαλμῶν . . νὺξ ἐκάλυψεν” 13.580; φᾶρος κὰκ κεφαλῆς εἴρυσσε down over . . , Od.8.85; [κόπρος] “κ. σπείους κέχυτο . . πολλή” 9.330; ὕδωρ κ. Χειρός, v. Χείρ; μύρον κ. τῆς κεφαλῆς καταχέαντες Pl.R.398a; “νάρκη μου κ. τῆς Χειρὸς καταχεῖται” Ar.V.713; “κ. τῆς τραπέζης καταπάσας τέφραν” Id.Nu.177; ξαίνειν κ. τοῦ νώτου πολλὰς [πληγάς] D.19.197; “ἐσκεδασμένοι κ. τῆς Χώρας” Plb.1.17.10; “οἱ κ. νώτου πονοῦντες” Id.3.19.7; “ῥόπαλον ἤλασα κὰκ κεφαλῆς” Theoc.25.256; κ. κόρρης παίειν, = ἐπὶ κόρρης, Luc.Cat.12, al.
b. Geom., along, upon, πίπτειν κατ᾽ [εὐθείας] Archim.Sph.Cyl.1 Def.2; αἱ γωνίαι κ. κύκλων περιφερειῶν ἐνεχθήσονται will move on . . , ib.1.23, al., cf. Aristarch.Sam.1.

2. down into, “νέκταρ στάξε κ. ῥινῶν” Il.19.39; of a dart, “κ. γαίης ᾤχετο” 13.504, etc.; “ἔθηκε κατ᾽ ὄχθης μείλινον ἔγχος” 21.172; “ψυχὴ κ. Χθονὸς ᾤχετο” 23.100; κ. γᾶς underground, Pi.O.2.59; κατ᾽ ὕδατος under water, Hdt.2.149; [ποταμὸς] “δὺς κ. τῆς γῆς” Pl.Phd. 113c, cf. Ti.25d; “κ. γῆς σύμεναι” A.Eu.1007 (anap.); κ. Χθονὸς κρύψαι to bury. S.Ant.24; ὁ κ. γῆς one dead and buried, X.Cyr.4.6.5; “οἱ κ. Χθονὸς θεοί” A.Pers.689, etc.; “θεοὶ<οἱ> κ. γᾶς” Id.Ch.475 (lyr.), etc.; so κ. θαλάσσης ἀφανίζεσθαι, καταδεδυκέναι, Hdt.7.6,235; also βᾶτε κατ᾽ ἀντιθύρων go down by or through . . , S.El.1433.

3. later, towards a point, τοξεύειν κ. σκοποῦ to shoot at, Hdn.6.7.8; “κατ᾽ ἰχνῶν τινος ὁδεύειν” Luc.Rh.Pr.9.

4. of vows or oaths, by, “καθ᾽ ἡμῶν ὀμνύναι” D.29.26, cf. 54.38; “ἐπιορκήσασα κ. τῶν παίδων” Lys.32.13; esp. of the victims, etc., over which the oath is taken, ὀμνυόντων τὸν ἐπιχώριον ὅρκον καθ᾽ ἱερῶν τελείων Foed. ap. Th.5.47, cf. Arist.Ath.29.5, Foed.Delph.Pell.1A9, etc.; “κ. τῶν νικητηρίων εὐξάμενοι” D.Ep.1.16; also κατ᾽ ἐξωλείας ὀμνύναι to imprecate destruction on oneself, Id.21.119; “κατ᾽ ἐξ. ἐπιορκεῖν” Id.57.22.

b. to make a vow towards, i.e. make a vow of offering . . , “κ. Χιλίων εὐχὴν ποιήσασθαι Χιμάρων” Ar. Eq.660.

5. in hostile sense, against, A.Ch.221, S.Aj.304, etc.; “κ. πάντων φύεσθαι” D.18.19; esp. of judges giving sentence against a person, A.Th.198, S.Aj.449, etc.; “ψεύδεσθαι κατά τινος” Lys.22.7; “λέγειν κατά τινος κακά” S.Ph.65, cf. X.HG1.5.2, etc.; of speeches, [λόγος] κ. Μειδίου, etc. (opp. πρὸς Λεπτίνην, in reply to L.); “δῶρα εἰληφέναι κατά τινος” Din.3.6, cf. 18.

6. of Time,for, “μισθοῦν κ. εἴκοσι ἐτῶν” IG12.94.37; κ. βίου for life, Tab.Heracl.1.50; “κὰπ παντὸς Χρόνοι” IG9(2).517.20 (Larissa) (but “κ. παντὸς τοῦ Χρόνου σκέψασθε” D. 22.72 falls under 7); “κ. παντὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος ἀείμνηστον” Lycurg.7.

7. in respect of, concerning, “μὴ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπων σκόπει μόνον τοῦτο” Pl. Phd.70d; “κ. τῶν ἄλλων τεχνῶν τοιαῦτα εὑρήσομεν” Id.Sph.253b; οἱ κ. Δημοσθένους ἔπαινοι praises bestowed on D., Aeschin.3.50; ἐρεῖν or λέγειν κατά τινος to say of one, Pl.Ap.37b, Prt.323b, etc.; “εἰ κ. θηλείας φαίης” A.D.Synt.198.10; “εἴπερ ἕν γέ τι ζητεῖς κ. πάντων” Pl.Men. 73d, cf. 74b; “ὅπερ εἴρηται καθόλου κ. πασῶν τῶν πολιτειῶν” Arist.Pol. 1307b2; freq. in the Logic of Arist., κατά τινος λέγεσθαι or κατηγορεῖσθαι to be predicated of . . , Int.16b10, Cat.1b10, etc.; καταφῆσαί (or ἀποφῆσαί） τι κατά τινος to affirm (or deny) of . . , Metaph.1007b21; so “κ. τινὸς ὑπάρχειν” Int.16b13: and in Adv. καθόλου (q.v.).

B. WITH Acc.,

I. of motion downwards, κ. ῥόον down stream, Od.14.254, Il.12.33; opp. ἀνὰ τὸν ποταμόν, Hdt.2.96; κ. τὸν ποταμόν, κ. τὸ ὑδάτιον, Id.1.194, Pl.Phdr.229a; κατ᾽ οὖρον ἰέναι, ῥεῖν, down (i.e. with) the wind, A.Th.690, S.Tr.468; κ. πνεῦμα, κατ᾽ ἄνεμον ἵστασθαι to leeward, Arist.HA535a19, 560b13, Dsc.4.153.

2. with or without signf. of motion, on, over, throughout a space, freq. in Hom., “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος” Od.1.344; κατ᾽ Ἀχαΐδα, κ. Τροίην, Il.11.770, 9.329; “κατ᾽ ἠερόεντα κέλευθα” Od.20.64; κ. πόντον, κῦμα, ὕλην, Il.4.276, 6.136, 3.151; “κ. πτόλιν” Od.2.383; κ. ἄστυ, οἶκον, Il.18.286, 6.56; κ. ὅμιλον, στρατόν, 3.36, 1.229; κ. κλισίας τε νέας τε ib.487; “πόλεμον κάτα δακρυόεντα” 17.512; κ. ὑσμίνην, μόθον, κλόνον, 5.84, 18.159, 16.331; “τὸ ὕδωρ κ. τοὺς ταφροὺς ἐχώρει” X.Cyr.7.5.16, etc. (in later Gr.of motion to a place, “κ. τὴν Ἰταλίαν” Zos.3.1); “καθ᾽ Ἑλλάδα” A.Ag.578; “κ. πτόλιν” Id.Th.6; “αἱ σκηναὶ αἱ κ. τὴν ἀγοράν” D.18.169; “τὰ κατ᾽ ἀγροὺς Διονύσια” Aeschin.1.157, etc.; “κ. τὸ προάστιον” Hdt.3.54; “τύμβον κατ᾽ αὐτόν” A. Th.528, cf. Supp.869 (lyr.): Geom., at a point, Euc.1.1,al.; τέμνειν [σφαῖραν] κ. κύκλον in a circle, Archim.Aren.1.17; also, in the region of, “οἱ κ. τὸν ἥλιον γινόμενοι ἀστέρες” Gem.12.7: freq. in Hom. in describing the place of a wound, βαλεῖν κ. στῆθος, γαστέρα, etc., Il.11.108, 16.465, al.; “νύξε κ. δεξιὸν ὦμον” 5.46; “οὔτασε κατ᾽ ἰσχίον” 11.339; so βαλεῖν κατ᾽ ἀσπίδα, κ. ζωστῆρα, 5.537,615; βέλος κ. καίριον ἦλθεν struck upon a vital part, v.l. in 11.439: metaph., “ἄχος κ. φρένα τύψε” 19.125: generally, κ. φρένα καὶ κατὰ θυμόν in heart and soul, 4.163, al.

3. opposite, over against, “κ. Σινώπην πόλιν” Hdt.1.76, cf. 2.148, Th.2.30, etc.; “ἀνὴρ κατ᾽ ἄνδρα” A.Th.505; “μολὼν . . μοι κ. στόμα” Id.Ch.573; “κατ᾽ ὀφθαλμούς τινος” LXX 2 Ki.12.11; “οἱ μὲν Ἀθηναῖοι κ. Λακεδαιμονίους ἐγένοντο” X.HG4.2.18; κατ᾽ Ἀχαιοὺς ἀντετάχθησαν ibid.; “ἐν συμποσίῳ . . , περίμενε, μέχρις ἂν γένηται κατὰ σέ” Epict.Ench. 15, cf. D.L.7.108.

II. distributively, of a whole divided into parts, κρῖν᾽ ἄνδρας κ. φῦλα, κ. φρήτρας by tribes, by clans, Il.2.362; κ. σφέας μαχέονται by themselves, separately, ib.366, cf. Th.4.64; “ἐσκήνουν κ. τάξεις” X.Cyr.2.1.25; “αὐτὴ καθ᾽ αὑτήν” A.Pr.1013; κ. κώμας κατοικημένοι in separate villages, Hdt.1.96; κατ᾽ ἑωυτοὺς ἕκαστοι ἐτράποντο each to his own home, Id.5.15; κ. πόλεις ἀποπλεῦσαι, διαλυθῆναι, Th.1.89, 3.1: “στρατιὰ κ. ἕνδεκα μέρη κεκοσμημένη” Pl.Phdr.247a; later “οἱ κατ᾽ ἄνδρα λόγοι” PLond.2.259.72 (i A. D.), cf. D.Chr.32.6, etc.; “ἡ κατ᾽ οἰκίαν ἀπογραφή” PLond.3.904.20(ii A.D.), etc.; κατ᾽ ἔπος word by word, Ar.Ra.802; κατ᾽ ὄνομα individually, 3 Ep.Jo.15, etc.; παῖδα κ. κρήνην at each fount a boy, Lyr.Alex.Adesp.37.13, cf. POxy 2108.9 (iii A.D.).

2. of Time, καθ᾽ ἡμέραν, κατ᾽ ἦμαρ, day by day, daily, v. ἡμέρα 111; καθ᾽ ἑνιαυτόν, κατ᾽ ἔτος, Test.Epict.6.24, Ev.Luc.2.41, etc.; “κ. μῆνα” POxy.275.18 (i A.D.).

3. of Numbers, by so many at a time, καθ᾽ ἕνα one at a time, individually, Hdt.7.104 (later “τὸ καθ᾽ ἕν” detailed list, PTeb.47.34 (ii B.C.), etc.); κ. μίαν τε καὶ δύο by ones and twos, Hdt.4.113; “δύο μνέαι τεταγμέναι κατ᾽ ἄνδρα αἰχμάλωτον ἕκαστον” Id.6.79; “ἐκ τῶν συμμάχων ἐξελέγετο κατ᾽ ὀλίγους” Id.8.113; κ. τὰς πέντε καὶ εἴκοσι μνᾶς πεντακοσίας δραχμὰς εἰσφέρειν to pay 500 drachmae on every 25 minae, D.27.7; “κ. διακοσίας καὶ τριακοσίας ὁμοῦ τι τάλαντον διακεχρημένον” in separate sums of 200 and 300 drachmae, Id.27.11; of ships, κ. μίαν (sc. ναῦν) in column, Th.2.90; “κ. μίαν ναῦν ἐπιτάττειν” Plb.1.26.12, cf. Th.2.84: Geom., μετρεῖν, μετρεισθαι κατά . . , measure, be measured a certain number of times, Euc.7 Def.8,9,al.; μετρεῖν κ. τὰς ἐν τῷ Β μονάδας as many times as there are units in B, Id.7.16.

III. of direction towards an object or purpose, πλεῖν κ. πρῆξιν on a business, for or after a matter, Od. 3.72, 9.253; πλάζεσθαι κ. ληΐδα to rove in search of booty, 3.106; κ. “ληΐην ἐκπλῶσαι” Hdt.2.152; “ἔβη κ. δαῖτα” Il.1.424; “ἐπιδημεῖν κατ᾽ ἐμπορίαν” IG22.141.32, cf. Arist.Ath.11.1; κ. Χρέος τινὸς ἐλθεῖν come to seek his help, consult him, Od.11.479, etc.; “ἵεται κ. τὴν φωνήν” Hdt.2.70; κ. θέαν ἥκειν to have come for the purpose of seeing, Th.6.31; “κ. πλοῦν ἤδη ὤν” Id.7.31; “καθ᾽ ἁρπαγὴν ἐσκεδασμένοι” X.An.3.5.2; κ. τί; for what purpose? why? Ar.Nu.239.

2. of pursuit, “κ. πόδας τινὸς ἐλαύνειν” Hdt.9.89; simply κ. τινά after him, Id.1.84; “ἰέναι κ. τοὺς ἄλλους” Id.9.53; κατ᾽ ἴχνος on the track, S.Aj.32, A.Ag.695 (lyr.); “ὥσπερ κατ᾽ ἴχνη κ. τὰ νῦν εἰρημένα ζῆν” Pl.Phd.115b.

3. Geom., in adverbial phrases, κ. κάθετον in the same vertical line, Archim. Quadr.6; κατ᾽ εὐθεῖάν τινι in the same straight line with . . , Papp. 58.7.

IV. of fitness or conformity, in accordance with, “κ. θυμόν” Il.1.136; καθ᾽ ἡμέτερον νόον after our liking, 9.108; “κ. νόον πρήξωμεν” Hdt.4.97; κ. μοῖραν as is meet and right, Il.1.286; κατ᾽ αἶσαν, κ. κόσμον, 10.445,472; “κ. νόμον” Hes.Th.417; “κὰν νόμον” Pi.O.8.78; “κ. τοὺς νόμους” IG22.1227.15; αἰτίαν καθ᾽ ἥντινα for what cause, A.Pr. 228; κατ᾽ ἔχθραν, κ. φθόνον, for (i.e. because of) hatred, envy, Id.Supp.336, Eu.686; καθ᾽ ἡδονήν τι δρᾶν, ποιεῖν, do as one pleases, Th. 2.37,53; “κ. τὸ ἔχθος τὸ Θεσσαλῶν” Hdt.8.30, cf. 9.38; κ. φιλίαν, κατ᾽ ἔχθος, Th.1.60, 103, etc.; κατ᾽ ἄλλο μὲν οὐδέν, ὅτι δέ . . for no other reason but that . . , Pl.Phdr.229d; κ. δύναμιν to the best of one's power, Hdt.3.142, etc. (κὰδ δ. Hes.Op.336); κ. τρόπον διοικεῖν arrange suitably, Isoc.2.6,al.; κατ᾽ εὐνοίην with goodwill, Hdt.6.108; “κ. τὰ παρηγγελμένα” X.An.2.2.8, etc.; in quotations, according to, “κατ᾽ Αἰσχύλον” Ar.Th.134; “κ. Πίνδαρον” Pl.Phdr.227b, etc.

2. in relation to, concerning, τὰ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους = τὰ ἀνθρώπινα, A.Eu.930, 310; “τὰ κ. τὸν Τέλλον” Hdt.1.31; τὰ κ. τὴν Κύρου τελευτήν ib.214; τὰ κ. πόλεμον military matters, Aeschin.1.181; αἱ κ. τὴν πόλιν οἰκονομίαι (opp. αἱ πολεμικαὶ πράξεις) the management of public affairs, Din. 1.97; “τὰ κ. τὰς θυσίας” SIG506.7(Delph., iii B.C.); so τὸ κατ᾽ ὑμέας as far as concerns you, Hdt.7.158; τὸ κατ᾽ ἐμέ as far as I am concerned, D.18.247; κ. τοῦτο in this respect, Hdt.5.3, etc.; κ. ταὐτά in the same way, Id.2.20; καθ᾽ ὅτι so far as, Th.1.82, etc.

3. in Comparisons, corresponding with, after the fashion of, κρομύοιο λοπὸν κ. like the coat of an onion, dub. in Od.19.233; “μέλος κ. Φοίνισσαν ἐμπολὰν πέμπεται” Pi.P.2.67; κ. Μιθραδάτην answering to the description of him, Hdt.1.121; τὴν ἰδέαν κ. πνιγέα like an oven in appearance, Ar.Av.1001; κηδεῦσαι καθ᾽ ἑαυτόν to marry in one's own rank of life, A.Pr.890; “οὐ κατ᾽ ἄνθρωπον φρονεῖν” Id.Th.425; “λέγω κατ᾽ ἄνδρα, μὴ θεόν, σέβειν ἐμέ” Id.Ag.925; οὐ κατὰ σέ none of your sort, Chionid.1 (but ἵνα προσείπω σε κατὰ σέ to address you in your own style, Pl.Grg.467c); “τὸ κατ᾽ ἐμὲ καὶ οὐ κατ᾽ ἐμέ” Arr.Epict.1.28.5; “οὐ κ. τὰς Μειδίου λῃτουργίας” D.21.169; “ἡ βασιλεία κ. τὴν ἀριστοκρατίαν ἐστί” Arist.Pol.1310b3: freq. after a Comp., “μέζων ἢ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπων φύσιν” Hdt.8.38, cf. Pl.Ap.20e, etc.; μείζω ἢ κ. δάκρυα too great for tears, Th.7.75; ἤθεα βαθύτερα ἢ κ. Θρήϊκας morerefined than was common among the Thracians, Hdt.4.95.

V. by the favour of a god, etc., “κ. δαίμονα” Pi.O.9.28, cf. P.8.68; “κ. θεῖον” Ar.Eq.147 codd. (κ. θεὸν Cobet); “κ. τύχην τινά” D.48.24.
VI. of round numbers (v. infr. v11.2), nearly, about, “κ. Χίλια ἑξακόσια ἔτεα” 1600 years more or less, Hdt.2.145, cf. 6.44, al.; κατ᾽ οὐδέν next to nothing, Pl.Plt.302b.

VII. of Time, during or in the course of a period, “κ. τὸν πόλεμον” Hdt.7.137; καθ᾽ ἡμέραν, κατ᾽ ἦμαρ, by day, A. Ch.818, Ag.668; “κατ᾽ εὐφρόνην” Id.Pers.221; κ. Χειμῶνα, κ. θερείαν, PLille1r14 (iii B.C.), PTeb.27.60 (ii B.C.).

2. about, “κ. τὸν αὐτὸν τοῦτον Χρόνον” Hdt.3.131, etc.; “κ. τοὺς θανάτους τῶν βασιλέων” Id.6.58; esp. with names of persons, κ. Ἄμασιν βασιλεύοντα about the time of Amasis, Id.2.134; “κ. τὸν κ. Κροῖσον Χρόνον” Id.1.67; οἱ κατ᾽ ἐκεῖνον (sc. τὸν Ἀλκιβιάδην）“ ὑμέτεροι πρόγονοι” D.21.146 (v.l. κατ᾽ ἐκ. τὸν Χρόνον）“; κ. τοὺς Ἡρακλείδας” X.Lac.10.8; οἱ καθ᾽ ἑαυτοὺς ἄνθρωποι their contemporaries, Id.Mem.3.5.10.

3. καθ᾽ ἕτος this year, SIG 284.24 (Erythrae, iv B.C.), OGI458.64 (i B.C./iA.D.), CIG3641b5,38 (Lampsacus).

VIII. periphrastically with abstract Subst., κατ᾽ ἡσυχίην, κ. τάχος, = ἡσύχως, ταχέως, Hdt.1.9,7.178; κ. κράτος by force, X.HG2.1.19, etc.; κ. μέρος partially, Arist.Po.1456a16; individually, severally, Pl.Tht.157b, Lg.835a; κ. φύσιν naturally, Hdt. 2.38, Pl.R.428e; κ. τὴν τέχνην skilfully, Luc.DDeor.20.7; οὔτ᾽ ἐμοὶ λέγειν καθ᾽ ἡδονήν [ἐστι] it is not pleasant for me to tell you, A.Pr.263.

C. Position: κατά may follow both its cases, and is then written with anastr. κάτα, as Il.20.221, etc.; so also in tmesi, when it follows its Verb, 17.91.

D. abs. as ADV. in all the above senses, esp. like κάτω, downwards, from above, down, freq. in Hom.

icardfacepalm:

All one need do is read c a r e f u l l y. But this all is a red herring.

Why not provide the entry for sarx which has the following example?

τον κυριον των πνευματων και πασης σαρκος SIG 1181.3 (ii B.C., Jewish)

spin

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-18-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

FWIW, here's the entry on κατά from LSJ: I see no corroboration there of your dictionary's note that κατά with the accusative means "in".

All one need do is read c a r e f u l l y.

Really? What did I miss?

Quote:

But this all is a red herring.

Why not provide the entry for sarx which has the following example?

τον κυριον των πνευματων και πασης σαρκος SIG 1181.3 (ii B.C., Jewish)

spin

Because the discussion is over the meaning of κατὰ with the accusative and of the expression κατὰ σάρκα, and what κατὰ σάρκα is construed with in Rom 1:3-4.

How is the expression "the lord of the spirits and all flesh" relevant?

Jeffrey

spin · 12-18-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

So, here's my dilemma:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans 1:3

peri tou uiou autou tou genomenou ek spermatoV dauid kata sarka

Here's the Latin Vulgate translation:
de Filio suo qui factus est ex semine David secundum carnem

Yes, the Greek uses “spermatos”, and the Latin: “semine”, i.e. in English, sperm and semen, respectively.

Sadly this is argument by appearance. You compare the English with the Greek and Latin and conclude that these latter must mean what the English does. You need to look at how the Greek and Latin are used, which you clearly haven't.

Just look at Gen 1:11, which talks of herbs providing seeds and of course we have Grk σπερμα and Lat semen. Obviously here they cannot mean sperm or semen despite appearances.
The same words are found in Gen 4:25 where the son of Adam is called Seth because god had appointed Adam another seed in the place of Abel. Do you want to argue "sperm" here??
What, in Gen 7:3, does it mean to "keep the seed alive"
Or Gen 8:22 "seed and harvest"?
How about Gen 9:9? what does seed mean in the notion "a covenant with you and with your seed"? Is this about sperm or descendants?

These are just the first five examples in Genesis. If you'd consulted Liddell and Scott or the Oxford Latin Dictionary, you'd see that your translation by appearances didn't match reality. Or if you'd looked at a good dictionary that provided you with etymology of English, you'd see that the English word "sperm" came into the language from Late Medieval Latin, not from Greek, so an argument from appearance is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Now why would anyone need to write something so explicit about the conception of baby Jesus? Why bother describing “sperm” if the male DNA component was furnished by the “Holy Spirit”? What, are we to believe that, God goes around inseminating females with human sperm? Not only Human sperm, but “DAVID'S sperm”. So, there were two miracles, not one, associated with the conception of Jesus:

1. God obtained David's sperm—quite a neat trick, since David had been dead for several centuries....

2. God transferred the sperm of David, into Mary's uterus, bypassing her vagina.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 4:4

ote de hlqen to plhrwma tou cronou exapesteilen o qeoV ton uion autou genomenon ek gunaikoV genomenon upo nomon

Latin Vulgate:
at ubi venit plenitudo temporis misit Deus Filium suum factum ex muliere factum sub lege

King James Version:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Does this logic seem reasonable? God can retrieve sperm from a man dead many centuries, and then impregnate a 13 year old girl using this sperm, without however, passing through her vaginal orifice.

Why is such behavior considered “lawful”? It strikes me as shameful. Alternatively, does “made under the law” mean that Mary did engage in conventional sexual intercourse, following the appropriate Jewish taboos, vis a vis washing the genitalia before/after intercourse? Then, was that the long since dead David, who served as her male partner???

If God can produce such miracles, what need has he for the “fullness of time”, i.e. 9 months gestation time? Why not cause the birth to take place instantly, upon successful penetration of Mary's ovum by long dead David's sperm, i.e. joining the two haploid gametes to form a diploid zygote?

This just seems to have been written for a certain level of amusement.

spin

spin · 12-18-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

All one need do is read c a r e f u l l y.

Really? What did I miss?

The bits I put in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

But this all is a red herring.

Why not provide the entry for sarx which has the following example?

τον κυριον των πνευματων και πασης σαρκος SIG 1181.3 (ii B.C., Jewish)

Because the discussion is over the meaning of κατὰ with the accusative and of the expression κατὰ σάρκα, and what κατὰ σάρκα is construed with in Rom 1:3-4.

That's what you've reduced it to. That's your fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

How is the expression "the lord of the spirits and all flesh" relevant?

It will save you from farting about. Note the contrast in the expression?

spin

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-18-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Really? What did I miss?

The bits I put in red.

Nothing in red showed up in my browser.

Quote:

That's what you've reduced it to. That's your fault.

Umm .. my fault?? The terms were dictated by Avi and his declarations about what κατὰ σάρκα means in Rom 1:4, weren't they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

How is the expression "the lord of the spirits and all flesh" relevant?

It will save you from farting about. Note the contrast in the expression?

I see the contrast in the expression. But what does that have to do with the meaning of κατὰ σάρκα? It seems to be no more relevant to determining the meaning of this expression than is πᾶσα σάρξ, = every-body, LXX Ge.6.12, al., Ev.Luc.3.6, etc.; οὐ . . πᾶσα σάρξ nobody, Ev. Matt.24.22.

Jeffrey

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12-17-2009, 09:10 PM	#62
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	pneuma is breath or spirit (or soul). It might be invisible, but not exactly imaginary, especially in the pejorative sense that we use that word today. There is a special vocabulary involved here that may be hard to translate - pneumatic/psychic.

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