Chris Weimer

sure, 39 and 40 seem to be repetitive and redacted, but 31-35 seem to flow well... but that's just my opinion

spin

But nobody said Moses gave them the "bread", so why does Jesus mention this? The preceding verse is

31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'

Nothing in this suggests Moses and there should be no doubt who the "he" is either, so why does Jesus say:

but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

Who else could have given the manna?

For me v32 simply doesn't follow from v31, yet v31 does explain why jesus says v35, just as v30 explains why he says v36.


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Chris Weimer

I dunno, a case could be made for 32 following 31, it could be implied, but 33 and 34 flow together very nicely. Then 34 and 35 flow together very nicely.

People want to see a sign, a miracle, like Moses showed them. Jesus says that they were given bread to eat in the wilderness, but it wasn't Moses, it was God, and it was a divine bread. They ask of this bread, Jesus says that it is only through him.

Now, if this was redacted, which it probably was, no doubt here, it was done with two works that share this part in common.

spin

I think it would be best to press on with further examples. Though this one seems clear to me, I did say

Continuing onto further examples may clarify or confuse the proposition.


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Chris Weimer

Yeah, that is a dead issue there. You know what spin, this is particularly enlightening, good eye. :thumbs:

spin

Does anyone else want to have a go without my intrusive comments? Here's more data. How does "the father" and "my father" fit together here?

John 8
12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one laid hands on him, because his time had not yet come.

8:21 - 30 (the father)
8:31 - 38 (the father)
8:39 - 59 (my father)

John 10
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(I think this is a church gloss, but you can do what you want with it.)
16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." 19 At these words the Jews were again divided. 20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"
21 But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

30 "I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"


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Vorkosigan

Are you saying that "the father" in John 10 here belongs to the sequence in John 8?

Chris Weimer

No, 14 and 30 go together, separate from 8.

Chris Weimer

In case you all are reading the KJV, 12:26 should read the father not my father...

But we have problems with 14, cf. -

1 "Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going."

5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

Verse 5 is problematic... it can be seen as going with 4 and 6, 4 being the verse that prompted the question, and 6 being the answer to the question, yet 1-4 and 6-7 remain distinct.

spin

I'd say first to go back to 13:36,

36 Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?"
Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."

then (omitting Peter's denial and the house image) Jn 14:

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?...

Does this deal with your problem?

It should also support the notion that Peter's denial is an additive.


spin