Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 01-10-2012, 03:13 PM

It sounds rather strange that a pagan would talk about the "corruption" of a gospel that he doesn't even believe in, such that he would never be able to determine the true version of a text he doesn't even believe is authentic in the first place.....

aa5874 · 01-10-2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It sounds rather strange that a pagan would talk about the "corruption" of a gospel that he doesn't even believe in, such that he would never be able to determine the true version of a text he doesn't even believe is authentic in the first place.....

Your statement seems very strange because people today, atheists, non-believers and skeptics, have similar views of Celsus that the Gospels were corrupted by apologetic sources.

Nothing has changed for the last 1800 years.

Duvduv · 01-10-2012, 08:23 PM

The idea that a pagan would be concerned makes me feel the author was using Celsus without realizing what he was doing.

aa5874 · 01-10-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The idea that a pagan would be concerned makes me feel the author was using Celsus without realizing what he was doing.

Not really. Celsus documented his accusations against Christians in a book called "True Discourse".

Origen did NOT deny that Christians mutilated the Gospels and attempted to show that mutliation is common in the field of "philosophy"

Even Christians accused other Christians of corrupting the Jesus story. You should know that Marcion, Simon Magus, Menander, Saturnilus, Valentinus, Basilides, Cerinthus, Caprocates, the Ebionites and Marcos were regarded as Christians but all had various beliefs about Jesus or the Son of God.

Duvduv · 01-10-2012, 09:15 PM

I know, but Celsus the pagan wouldn't care who had which gospel. There wouldn't be a true gospel for someone who didn't believe in it.

aa5874 · 01-10-2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I know, but Celsus the pagan wouldn't care who had which gospel. There wouldn't be a true gospel for someone who didn't believe in it.

Don't you even understand that Celsus cared about the VERACITY of the Jesus story and wrote about it just like people do today, 1800 YEARS later?

Was it not the same so-called PAGANS who became Christians if they believe the Jesus story was true?

You are NOT a Christian yet you still would like to know the actual authors, the actual date of writing, the chronology and even those who interpolated the NT.

Was Irenaeus and Tertullian Pagans before conversion?

mountainman · 01-10-2012, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I know, but Celsus the pagan wouldn't care who had which gospel. There wouldn't be a true gospel for someone who didn't believe in it.

Despite what the "Biblical Historians" might say about what they have been instructed in theological college, IMO Celsus is more than likely just another pre-Nicaean Eusebian stooge. Eusebius was attempting to demonstrate with his fabrications that second century pagans were aware of the rising christian menace.

Duvduv · 01-11-2012, 02:35 AM

Celsus wasn't interested in becoming a Christian. He was a critic. So to have the author put such words in the mouth of Celsus shows that the author used him for rhetorical purposes of propaganda
I agree with Mountainman's point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I know, but Celsus the pagan wouldn't care who had which gospel. There wouldn't be a true gospel for someone who didn't believe in it.

Don't you even understand that Celsus cared about the VERACITY of the Jesus story and wrote about it just like people do today, 1800 YEARS later?

Was it not the same so-called PAGANS who became Christians if they believe the Jesus story was true?

You are NOT a Christian yet you still would like to know the actual authors, the actual date of writing, the chronology and even those who interpolated the NT.

Was Irenaeus and Tertullian Pagans before conversion?

Doug Shaver · 01-11-2012, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Celsus documented his accusations against Christians in a book called "True Discourse".

Who says so?

aa5874 · 01-11-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Celsus documented his accusations against Christians in a book called "True Discourse".

Who says so?

Your question is either absurd, naive or a combination of both since you should well know that sources of antiquity do SAY so..

Examine the Preface to "Against Celsus".

Quote:

.... For I do not know in what rank to place him who has need of arguments written in books in answer to the charges of Celsus against the Christians, in order to prevent him from being shaken in his faith, and confirm him in it.

But nevertheless, since in the multitude of those who are considered believers some such persons might be found as would have their faith shaken and overthrown by the writings of Celsus, but who might be preserved by a reply to them of such a nature as to refute his statements and to exhibit the truth, we have deemed it right to yield to your injunction, and to furnish an answer to the treatise which you sent us, but which I do not think that any one, although only a short way advanced in philosophy, will allow to be a “True Discourse,” as Celsus has entitled it....

Examine "Against Celsus" 40

Quote:

...And you yourself may find, if you take the trouble, many confused statements made by Celsus throughout his whole book; so that even in this account he may, by those who know how to observe and require an orderly method of arrangement, be convicted of great rashness and boasting, in having inscribed upon his work the title of A True Discourse,— a thing which is never done by a learned philosopher...

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01-10-2012, 03:13 PM	#151
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	It sounds rather strange that a pagan would talk about the "corruption" of a gospel that he doesn't even believe in, such that he would never be able to determine the true version of a text he doesn't even believe is authentic in the first place.....

01-10-2012, 08:23 PM	#153
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The idea that a pagan would be concerned makes me feel the author was using Celsus without realizing what he was doing.

01-10-2012, 09:15 PM	#155
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I know, but Celsus the pagan wouldn't care who had which gospel. There wouldn't be a true gospel for someone who didn't believe in it.

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